Official Game Thread: Oklahoma State vs. Kansas State

[EdmondPoke]

One last note about the defense, but it's a crucial one to understand.

The 3-3-5 defense is inherently high risk, high reward. You're going to give up yards, but the idea is that you increase your likelihood of that key 3rd down stop, or forcing turnovers. With as many interceptions as Bowman has thrown..

We're still plus 2 in turnover differential. This defense is trying to do it's job. The offense is letting us down.

 

[EdmondPoke]

I don't disagree on Nardo now that he's been hired, but... Hard enough to keep coordinators here? What...?

Fedora- 2 years.
Holgersen- 1 year.
Monken- 2 years.
Knowles- 3 years.

It's been blatantly apparent that we can't afford to keep good coordinators around. That's why Gundy went out and hired Yurcich. That's why Gundy went out and hired someone to run a defensive formation, not necessarily who the best coordinator would be. This isn't some strange or surprising revelation. It's been understood since 2013 when Gundy hired Yurcich. He got tired of replacing good coordinators.

 

[Backin82]

Fedora- 2 years.
Holgersen- 1 year.
Monken- 2 years.
Knowles- 3 years.

It's been blatantly apparent that we can't afford to keep good coordinators around. That's why Gundy went out and hired Yurcich. That's why Gundy went out and hired someone to run a defensive formation, not necessarily who the best coordinator would be. This isn't some strange or surprising revelation. It's been understood since 2013 when Gundy hired Yurcich. He got tired of replacing good coordinators.

You just listed the guys that gave our best results ever. The fact that you're using those guys to support your argument is insane. You'd rather keep bad coordinators around and get mediocre results than pay for good ones to get superior results? What on earth? But the fact is, we can afford them, because we DID afford them. It just requires effort to find new ones every 2 seasons. I think Gundy hates putting in a lot of work, and has realized he can keep making $8mil per year and work way less by keeping cheap/bad coordinators.

 

[EdmondPoke]

You just listed the guys that gave our best results ever. The fact that you're using those guys to support your argument is insane. You'd rather keep bad coordinators around and get mediocre results than pay for good ones to get superior results? What on earth?

What on earth are you talking about?

I said you don't want to fire someone who hasn't even had 2 full seasons because setting that precedent makes it even harder to keep coordinators around. If they think that they could be fired after 1 bad season, you sure as s*** they're gonna jump at the first perceived "step up". By the way, by your logic, we'd have fired Knowles after 2018 when were the 98th ranked defense.

Of course I want to pay good coordinators to stick around, or pay enough to lure good coordinators to come here. So instead of sitting around wishing for another T. Boone to come our way, I'd rather support an approach that doesn't increase the difficulty of keeping coordinators here.

 

[Backin82]

What on earth are you talking about?

I said you don't want to fire someone who hasn't even had 2 full seasons because setting that precedent makes it even harder to keep coordinators around. If they think that they could be fired after 1 bad season, you sure as s*** they're gonna jump at the first perceived "step up". By the way, by your logic, we'd have fired Knowles after 2018 when were the 98th ranked defense.

Of course I want to pay good coordinators to stick around, or pay enough to lure good coordinators to come here. So instead of sitting around wishing for another T. Boone to come our way, I'd rather support an approach that doesn't increase the difficulty of keeping coordinators here.

No, you're missing my point. I'm not suggesting we fire anyone after one season. I'm challenging the logic that finding new coordinators every two seasons due to their success (hard to keep around) is a bad thing. If im misunderstanding your point, I'm sorry.

Your examples seemed to frame those guys as people we should avoid. I'm wondering why you're pointing to our most successful people and saying we shouldn't pursue that type of candidate.

 

[EdmondPoke]

No, you're missing my point. I'm not suggesting we fire anyone after one season. I'm challenging the logic that finding new coordinators every two seasons due to their success (hard to keep around) is a bad thing. If im misunderstanding your point, I'm sorry.

Replacing a good coordinator every 2 years is not a good thing. That’s hard on the coaching staff, that’s hard on the players, that’s hard on recruiting. Obviously, you’d love to pay your good coordinators to keep them around, but we don’t do that. Gundy’s solution, for better or for worse, is to hire people he thinks can become good coordinators. His track record hasn’t been great, but we can’t make snap decisions on people who haven’t been on the job for even a season and a half.

 

[Backin82]

Replacing a good coordinator every 2 years is not a good thing. That’s hard on the coaching staff, that’s hard on the players, that’s hard on recruiting. Obviously, you’d love to pay your good coordinators to keep them around, but we don’t do that. Gundy’s solution, for better or for worse, is to hire people he thinks can become good coordinators. His track record hasn’t been great, but we can’t make snap decisions on people who haven’t been on the job for even a season and a half.

If they are leaving due to their success, then it's a good thing. I strongly disagree that success (and the resulting coaching searches) are in any way bad. I'm frankly amazed that your argument even enters the discussion in D1 football.

Seems like you're ignoring the fact that success also has a positive impact on the players and program...

So the 2011 season was a negative since we had to replace our OC? That season is worse for the program than our current OC situation?

 

[EdmondPoke]

If they are leaving due to their success, then it's a good thing. I strongly disagree that success (and the resulting coaching searches) are in any way bad. I'm frankly amazed that your argument even enters the discussion in D1 football.

Seems like you're ignoring the fact that success also has a positive impact on the players and program...

So the 2011 season was a negative since we had to replace our OC? That season is worse for the program than our current OC situation?

So why didn't our success continue after Knowles left?

Why didn't our offensive success continue after Monken left? Had it not been for finding Rudolph in a place we normally never recruit, who knows how long it could've taken for us to re-establish a good offense.

Your line of thinking is fundamentally flawed. It is assuming that every hire thereafter will also be as good as your last. The objective shouldn't be to replace coordinators every 2 years because of how good they were. It should be to retain those good coordinators because you're not guaranteed to replace them with someone as successful. However, we don't pay enough to do that here, so you have to approach the problem some other way. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Will it work with Nardo? Who knows. Right now, however, is not the time to make that decision.

 

[Backin82]

So why didn't our success continue after Knowles left?

Why didn't our offensive success continue after Monken left? Had it not been for finding Rudolph in a place we normally never recruit, who knows how long it could've taken for us to re-establish a good offense.

Your line of thinking is fundamentally flawed. It is assuming that every hire thereafter will also be as good as your last. The objective shouldn't be to replace coordinators every 2 years because of how good they were. It should be to retain those good coordinators because you're not guaranteed to replace them with someone as successful. However, we don't pay enough to do that here, so you have to approach the problem some other way. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Will it work with Nardo? Who knows. Right now, however, is not the time to make that decision.

We've spent good money on coordinators with good results (our best results ever). The only difference is the work it takes to replace them every couple of years. We can afford (and have afforded) to hire them. We can't afford to keep them. I agree with you on that point. But I disagree that it's better to keep bad coordinators for the sake of continuity as opposed to spending good money on proven, successful coordinators every two seasons.

 

[DiamondDog]

Do you not watch linebackers plant linemen on their ass every other snap? They are terrible and most should be at a school like Tulsa or Ark State not OSU.

And the locked on osu guy claimed we had the best returning OL in the country

 

[EdmondPoke]

We've spent good money on coordinators with good results (our best results ever). The only difference is the work it takes to replace them every couple of years. We can afford (and have afforded) to hire them. We can't afford to keep them. I agree with you on that point. But I disagree that it's better to keep bad coordinators for the sake of continuity as opposed to spending good money on proven, successful coordinators every two seasons.

You're assuming that I'm saying keep bad coordinators around.

That's not what I'm saying. In fact, never once have I said that. I said that you have to give them a chance to succeed. If you don't, you're not going to hire good coordinators because they're going to recognize that they may not be given a fair chance to succeed. Firing Nardo before he's even completed 1.5 seasons is a prime example of not being given a fair chance. He's had one recruiting class, to recruit his guys for a defense we've never run before, and trying to make it work with talent left over from a previous coordinator's (actually previous two coordinators) vision for defense. Luckily, we have talent, and it's shown. However, you have to give Nardo time before you say he's a bad hire. By the way, it's almost impossible to tell how good/bad your defense is when your offense is as inept as ours is.

Firing Dunn, on the other hand, is perfectly acceptable at this point and frankly, overdue.

 

[Backin82]

You're assuming that I'm saying keep bad coordinators around.

That's not what I'm saying. In fact, never once have I said that. I said that you have to give them a chance to succeed. If you don't, you're not going to hire good coordinators because they're going to recognize that they may not be given a fair chance to succeed. Firing Nardo before he's even completed 1.5 seasons is a prime example of not being given a fair chance. He's had one recruiting class, to recruit his guys for a defense we've never run before, and trying to make it work with talent left over from a previous coordinator's (actually previous two coordinators) vision for defense. Luckily, we have talent, and it's shown. However, you have to give Nardo time before you say he's a bad hire. By the way, it's almost impossible to tell how good/bad your defense is when your offense is as inept as ours is.

Firing Dunn, on the other hand, is perfectly acceptable at this point and frankly, overdue.

Thanks for the explanation. Sounds like we're mostly on the same page. I'd just rather us pursue proven guys instead of the learn-on-the-job types, and believe our most successful seasons align with that approach.

 

[AgronomyPoke]

Yes, I figured with the one play score Georgia would win with a TD with less than 30 seconds left. Another freshman 2 with the dagger to end the game in the end zone. Just wish the pokes would find moxie polios that sometime.

 

[Cowboyshoopspride]

One last note about the defense, but it's a crucial one to understand.

The 3-3-5 defense is inherently high risk, high reward. You're going to give up yards, but the idea is that you increase your likelihood of that key 3rd down stop, or forcing turnovers. With as many interceptions as Bowman has thrown..

We're still plus 2 in turnover differential. This defense is trying to do it's job. The offense is letting us down.

I like that but I don’t remember ISU giving up the kind of chunk plays we do. Once every couple of
Games, sure. We are guaranteed to do it every game multiple times.

 

[Chairman of the Board]

One last note about the defense, but it's a crucial one to understand.

The 3-3-5 defense is inherently high risk, high reward. You're going to give up yards, but the idea is that you increase your likelihood of that key 3rd down stop, or forcing turnovers. With as many interceptions as Bowman has thrown..

We're still plus 2 in turnover differential. This defense is trying to do it's job. The offense is letting us down.

The defense is awful. We are #129 in total defense out of 133. Let it go. They both suck.

 

[Poke Skywalker]

You're assuming that I'm saying keep bad coordinators around.

That's not what I'm saying. In fact, never once have I said that. I said that you have to give them a chance to succeed. If you don't, you're not going to hire good coordinators because they're going to recognize that they may not be given a fair chance to succeed. Firing Nardo before he's even completed 1.5 seasons is a prime example of not being given a fair chance. He's had one recruiting class, to recruit his guys for a defense we've never run before, and trying to make it work with talent left over from a previous coordinator's (actually previous two coordinators) vision for defense. Luckily, we have talent, and it's shown. However, you have to give Nardo time before you say he's a bad hire. By the way, it's almost impossible to tell how good/bad your defense is when your offense is as inept as ours is.

Firing Dunn, on the other hand, is perfectly acceptable at this point and frankly, overdue.

You seem to be of an old school, Pat Jones, 70’s and 80’s philosophy on coaches. That they have to be given 4-5 years to bring in their system and recruit and develop their own players. That’s not the reality of college football today with the portal and immediate success or lack of. A year and a half or not, anybody with an ounce of football knowledge can see Nardo is in over his head and getting schooled at this level. I can only imagine what players, recruits, and those longtime assistants that were passed over are thinking.

You used the argument that there were moments of success? I’m in no way making an argument for Dunn, but he’s had more frequent success proportionate to his time than Nardo has. As miserable as we’ve been, and as awful as the playcalling has been at times, total offense is 52nd of 133 vs Nardo’s 129 of 133. Gundy realized in the middle of Vance Bedford’s second year he was a bad hire. Let’s hope he’s having the same realization with Nardo. We pretty much can’t do any worse and have nowhere to go but up.

And it’s not just chunk pass plays killing us, we’re getting gashed by the run and giving up big pass plays. 117 in rush D and 120 in pass D.

 

[EdmondPoke]

I like that but I don’t remember ISU giving up the kind of chunk plays we do. Once every couple of
Games, sure. We are guaranteed to do it every game multiple times.

They don't as much anymore. They're also 8 years into the 3-3-5. That is the staple of Heacock, who Campbell brought in with him at ISU.

For comparison, in their first year in the 3-3-5, ISU ranked 102nd in total defense. The next season was 43rd, 2018 was 33rd, and then in 2021 and 2022, they had a top 10 defense with a super experienced defense. After those players graduated, they went back to mid-50's last year.

 

[Cowboyshoopspride]

The defense is awful. We are #129 in total defense out of 133. Let it go. They both suck.

If the offense stayed on the field how much would the statistics change? They’re defending an inordinate amount of plays 3 of the last 4 games.

 

[Poke Rocker]

Fedora- 2 years.
Holgersen- 1 year.
Monken- 2 years.
Knowles- 3 years.

It's been blatantly apparent that we can't afford to keep good coordinators around. That's why Gundy went out and hired Yurcich. That's why Gundy went out and hired someone to run a defensive formation, not necessarily who the best coordinator would be. This isn't some strange or surprising revelation. It's been understood since 2013 when Gundy hired Yurcich. He got tired of replacing good coordinators.

Actually Knowles was here for four years 2018 to 2021! His last two units in that freaky Covid year of 2020 and his last group in 2021 were very good units! I would say 2021 group was outstanding!!!

 

[Poke Skywalker]

If the offense stayed on the field how much would the statistics change? They’re defending an inordinate amount of plays 3 of the last 4 games.

2 of the last 5 games they defended more plays, the other 3 time of possession was almost identical and the opponent defended more. I agree that the offense could help the D, but the D has to help themselves and get off the field in those two games. Arkansas was 60% on 3rd down, Utah was much lower on 3rd but converted 4 of 5 4th downs. And as we’ve seen, both those teams are far from offensive juggernauts.

Regardless, yesterday they didn’t have that excuse of being on the field too much. Actually 15 fewer plays than the Kstate D and they still got whipped.