Herecomesbullet
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See the last post....You're making the same points over and over which have already been responded to.
Sunday Morning Coaches Week 4: Stranded in Iowa edition
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You keep talking about Kansas State and Iowa State losing coaches to bigger/better programs. Well here is some info for you:
List of Kansas State Wildcats head football coaches - Wikipedia
In their entire history from soup to nuts Kansas State has never once had a head football coach leave Kansas State for a head coaching position at blue blood football program. Ever. Not once. Bill Snyder is the only one who ever could have, but he didn't. There have been a few who have left for other programs, like Drake (DIII). There have been a couple that have made lateral moves. But there have been NO stepping stone moves. None. Zip, zero, zilch.
List of Iowa State Cyclones head football coaches - Wikipedia
In Iowa State's entire history from soup to nuts there has only been one head football coach leave Iowa State for a head coaching position at a blue blood program. Earle Bruce left Iowa State to coach at Ohio State, and that is truly leaving for a blue blood. There has been another time that an Iowa State coach left for a better program and that is Gene Chizik to Auburn. That is an N=2 in Iowa State's entire football history.
So, stop the "it's not happening any more" with those programs, because it hasn't happened ever. I don't understand what point you are trying to make with them anyway. It's like you're only including them because OSU, KSU, and ISU all have an S in them.
Herecomesbullet
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Bless your heart Rx.You keep talking about Kansas State and Iowa State losing coaches to bigger/better programs. Well here is some info for you:
List of Kansas State Wildcats head football coaches - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
In their entire history from soup to nuts Kansas State has never once had a head football coach leave Kansas State for a head coaching position at blue blood football program. Ever. Not once. Bill Snyder is the only one who ever could have, but he didn't. There have been a few who have left for other programs, like Drake (DIII). There have been a couple that have made lateral moves. But there have been NO stepping stone moves. None. Zip, zero, zilch.
List of Iowa State Cyclones head football coaches - Wikipedia
In Iowa State's entire history from soup to nuts there has only been one head football coach leave Iowa State for a head coaching position at a blue blood program. Earle Bruce left Iowa State to coach at Ohio State, and that is truly leaving for a blue blood. There has been another time that an Iowa State coach left for a better program and that is Gene Chizik to Auburn. That is an N=2 in Iowa State's entire football history.
So, stop the "it's not happening any more" with those programs, because it hasn't happened ever. I don't understand what point you are trying to make with them anyway. It's like you're only including them because OSU, KSU, and ISU all have an S in them.
Out of all the possible responses one could give after another poster dropped facts counter to your proposition, this is one.
Herecomesbullet
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I've already given them all above. But I guess you're requesting I post them again, which seems like a waste of time, but, whatever.
All of which he just posted I assume is 100% correct, although he left out that Iowa State lost Gene Chizik to Auburn, which makes them look like even more of a stepping stone type school. The fact that K-State lost a Coach to Drake and a couple to what was described as a "lateral" move, which is 100% conjecture, just goes to show how much of a stepping stone K-State actually was.
And, this statement
"In their entire history from soup to nuts Kansas State has never once had a head football coach leave Kansas State for a head coaching position at blue blood football program. Ever. Not once."
Losing a coach to a "Blue Blood" was not my parameter. My parameter was bigger/better school, which, K State was one of the worst programs in College football for years, so that's not a difficult parameter to meet.
Dating back to 1951, the only coaches not named Bill Snyder that K State hasn't fired were Vince Gibson, Bus Merles and Bill Meek. All 3 of those coaches moved on to different schools, by their own choice, which would indicate they felt where they were going was "BETTER" than K-State.
Meek went to Houston, Merles went to Drake of all places and Vince Gibson went to Louisville.
So, every coach that has had an inkling of hope or success at K-State, other than Bill Snyder, has moved on from them, which is absolutely the definition of a "stepping stone" school.
But, even with that, it's still not even a rebuttal to the point being made.
The statement was Places "like" "OSU, Iowa State and K-State" Meaning schools of their stature that aren't blue bloods that folks have historically considered to be stepping stone type schools.
Meaning, schools of their stature, or those "types" of schools.
I have shown evidence, the current SEC coaches and where they came from, that these schools, like Iowa State, are not losing the Gene Chiziks to Auburn anymore, or Vince Gibson to Louisville.
The College football landscape is changing by the second, so who knows what the future is going to bring or what things will look like even a year from now, but, as of right now, Oklahoma State, K-State, Iowa State etc. are better jobs now than they ever have been. They've grown into good enough jobs to retain their coaches and keep them from jumping at the first SEC job that offers.
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Stepping stones are absolutely a thing...I will give you one...Who is the coach at Tennessee...and where did he come from...
...clue: it wasnt a blue blood...
Herecomesbullet
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A Non Power Power 5 team, which was UCF when he got hired, which is to my point. These schools are hiring from G5, not Power 5, at least as the landscape sits at the moment.
You are not paying attention to the narrative of what constitutes a Power conf...it will not be the same very, very soon.
They did win a national championship.
I dont have time to look back at all P5 hires in the last 10-15yrs...
But some current P5 moves from previously smaller market/lower P5 schools:
P5-P5
James Franklin- Vandy to Penn St
Mel Tucker- Colo to Mich St
Lincoln Riley- outlier but example of market/money influence
Mario Cristobal- Oregon to Miami
Successful G5 to P5:
PJ Fleck- Western Michigan to Minnesota
Luke Fickell- Cincinnati to Wisconsin
Kalen Deboer- Fresno St to Washington
Mike Norvell- Memphis to Florida St
Neon Deion...
Josh Heupel- UCF to Tennessee
I have no idea how it would actually play out post-Gundy, but I do know many students have a hard time living in Stillwater for 4-5 yrs being a hours drive from the nearest metro. I simply think it will be difficult convincing a coach (& family) to stay after having success and getting offers from bigger markets with now much deeper pockets due to recent realignment budgets...
Then there are the Matt Rhules of the world that would have success and head off to the NFL...
I think that having NFL & blueblood worthy coaches come thru and bring success, however limited, would make for excitement, but I am a realist and understand the cost of that possibility.
I think that having NFL & blueblood worthy coaches come thru and bring success, however limited, would make for excitement, but I am a realist and understand the cost of that possibility.
Herecomesbullet
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Understood...I understand your perspective, I really do, I'm a diehard and have been for my whole 50 years of existence. All of us that sat through the 0-10-1, and the spotiness in the program before and after that think the same way, to differing extents, so we're speaking the same language from that perspective.
But, if things continue on the same path as they are on now with Gundy, at some point, the cost of not taking a chance and moving on will be more costly than holding on to him just because he won't leave for another school. That point, IMO, is still is the fairly distant future, but it's gone from being completely out of the question to being something I think even the most loyal fans are at least thinking about.
Drake is DIII. Moving from D1 to DIII is not a "stepping stone". It is "getting the f**k out while you can". Louisville was a basketball school. Their winning percentage from 1941-1974 was 0.553, which frankly was better than ours, but still, it makes it a lateral move. They simply weren't a "next tier program". They were another place where a coach was likely to have a couple of good years and then get fired or resign.
Here is a fact of the matter. Very few coaches enjoy the kind of sustained success that Gundy has enjoyed, very damn few. The pattern of a couple of good years and then a slide to mediocrity is the rule across all of college football. All of it. Finding exceptions to those rules is what happens at the blue bloods and the top tier schools. It doesn't happen for the rest of us. You can think of it like a coaching pyramid. I've proposed this before:
There are very, very few of the true legend coaches, guys like Knute Rockne and Bear Bryant. They are generational coaches that change the game. Then there are great coaches like Nick Saban that dominate the game for their time, and there are more of those, but still very few. Good coaches, guys that can win consistently and maintain a high level over a long period of time are still pretty rare. That's Gundy. He's a good coach. Not a great one, and certainly not a legend. But when you have a good coach you need to hang on to him. Witness Nebraska when they ran a good coach off because they perceived that he wasn't great and they lusted after great. Also witness Texas when they forced a great coach, Mack Brown, to muck around with his staff and then forced him out. Texas is closer to being back than Nebraska. Nebraska, thanks to switching conferences, may never recover. Heck, even mighty Alabama after Bear Bryant had Ray Perkins (good), Bill Curry (good), Gene Stallings (great), and then Mike DuBose, Dennis Franchione, Mike Price, Mike Shula, and Joe Kines (mediocre and suck) before landing Nick Saban. Mediocre coaches and coaches that suck are easy to find. Replacing a good coach with a great or legendary coach is extremely difficult. Replacing a good coach with a mediocre coach or a coach that sucks is easy. Anyone who thinks we can fire Gundy and hire a legend is delusional. The absolute most likely think that would happen is we would fire Gundy and hire someone mediocre or that would suck.
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The highest points in our history in FB have come after someone left for a better job. Jones had a better tenure, until he cheated than Johnson. Gundy had a better tenure than Miles. If they leave, they leave. You hire the best you can find,?pay them and get after it. ILather, Rinse, Repeat
MustangPokeFan
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It’s called running for your life because there is zero blocking going on!
Drake is D1.
Yeah, sometimes. What I see is our pass blocking is better than our run blocking and he bales at times when he doesn’t have to. If you look at the data both Gundy and Rangel have been much better at sustaining drives because they stay in the pocket looking down field until they are actually flushed.
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My apologies to Drake. They are FCS. Still not a “step up” from FBS, though. That is still getting out while the getting is good, and doesn’t change my point about Kansas State. They have had one great coach and no good ones. Time will tell about Klieman.
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Okiemike31
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Every time I see someone use Nebraska as an example of why not to fire a coach I always want to ask, what proof do you have that Nebraska would not be in the exact same situation they are in now if they had kept their coach? Did Solich go to another blue blood program and build a dynasty? If he was such a good coach how come he was never pulled away from Ohio? You assume that they would be better but you have no idea.
Same with Mack brown, are you assuming that he would have won more national championships at Texas? In the last 5 years UNC is 1-3 in bowl games with a win over temple.
Did both of those coaches get fired prematurely? Yes I would say so, but to pretend that you know for a fact that those two programs would be better off if they had kept those coaches is false.
No one knows what will happen after Gundy but I know for a fact that he has 1 Big XII championship in 18 years, if that’s acceptable to you then ya you probably don’t support a change.
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