Sunday Morning Coaches Week 4: Stranded in Iowa edition

[RxCowboy]

Every time I see someone use Nebraska as an example of why not to fire a coach I always want to ask, what proof do you have that Nebraska would not be in the exact same situation they are in now if they had kept their coach? Did Solich go to another blue blood program and build a dynasty? If he was such a good coach how come he was never pulled away from Ohio? You assume that they would be better but you have no idea.

Same with Mack brown, are you assuming that he would have won more national championships at Texas? In the last 5 years UNC is 1-3 in bowl games with a win over temple.

Did both of those coaches get fired prematurely? Yes I would say so, but to pretend that you know for a fact that those two programs would be better off if they had kept those coaches is false.

No one knows what will happen after Gundy but I know for a fact that he has 1 Big XII championship in 18 years, if that’s acceptable to you then ya you probably don’t support a change.

Mack Brown was a Colt McCoy blown shoulder away from winning a second BCS championship at Texas. Even after McCoy went down they still had a chance to win with Gilbert Godfried at QB.

One Big 12 championship in 18 years doubled the number of Big 8/12 championships in our entire history. Am I happy with that? No. I am ecstatic that I have seen two in my lifetime.

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[Soothsayer]

Drake is DIII. Moving from D1 to DIII is not a "stepping stone". It is "getting the f**k out while you can". Louisville was a basketball school. Their winning percentage from 1941-1974 was 0.553, which frankly was better than ours, but still, it makes it a lateral move. They simply weren't a "next tier program". They were another place where a coach was likely to have a couple of good years and then get fired or resign.

Here is a fact of the matter. Very few coaches enjoy the kind of sustained success that Gundy has enjoyed, very damn few. The pattern of a couple of good years and then a slide to mediocrity is the rule across all of college football. All of it. Finding exceptions to those rules is what happens at the blue bloods and the top tier schools. It doesn't happen for the rest of us. You can think of it like a coaching pyramid. I've proposed this before:

View attachment 1457

There are very, very few of the true legend coaches, guys like Knute Rockne and Bear Bryant. They are generational coaches that change the game. Then there are great coaches like Nick Saban that dominate the game for their time, and there are more of those, but still very few. Good coaches, guys that can win consistently and maintain a high level over a long period of time are still pretty rare. That's Gundy. He's a good coach. Not a great one, and certainly not a legend. But when you have a good coach you need to hang on to him. Witness Nebraska when they ran a good coach off because they perceived that he wasn't great and they lusted after great. Also witness Texas when they forced a great coach, Mack Brown, to muck around with his staff and then forced him out. Texas is closer to being back than Nebraska. Nebraska, thanks to switching conferences, may never recover. Heck, even mighty Alabama after Bear Bryant had Ray Perkins (good), Bill Curry (good), Gene Stallings (great), and then Mike DuBose, Dennis Franchione, Mike Price, Mike Shula, and Joe Kines (mediocre and suck) before landing Nick Saban. Mediocre coaches and coaches that suck are easy to find. Replacing a good coach with a great or legendary coach is extremely difficult. Replacing a good coach with a mediocre coach or a coach that sucks is easy. Anyone who thinks we can fire Gundy and hire a legend is delusional. The absolute most likely think that would happen is we would fire Gundy and hire someone mediocre or that would suck.

The fact that you don't consider Nick Saban, the coach with the most national titles, to be a true legendary coach, and the idea that he is somehow second tier is absolutely ridiculous and negates anything you might have to say.

Which "good" coach at Nebraska are you talking about? Frank Solich who really was a good coach and had years of success at his next school or Bo Pelini, the hothead who failed at his next school?

Also, I don't think anyone thinks OSU will hire a "legendary" coach like Bear Bryant anytime after Gundy. Fans aren't asking for a legend. They're not expecting six national titles. They're expecting consistent winning and a conference title more than once in 20 years. They're expecting a coach to care about losses. Those aren't unrealistic expectations for OSU. You are correct that firing and hiring coaches is risky business. It is a lot easier to hire a mediocre coach than a good one. Sometimes, though, it works out (e.g. TCU last year). But, you've go to ask yourself do you keep a once-good coach when he's turned into a mediocre or a coach that sucks just because he's been good historically? I don't think so. Also ask yourself if you can name a good coach who has a terrible crash (like going 2-10 or 3-9) who has recovered to winning ways at the same school? I can't think of one.

 

[Osucowboy79]

Also ask yourself if you can name a good coach who has a terrible crash (like going 2-10 or 3-9) who has recovered to winning ways at the same school? I can't think of one.

That was a fun one to look up. Best I could find was a couple of 4-8s. I'm sure I've missed some but there's a start.

Patterson and Brian Kelly both recovered to have 12+ win seasons after 4-8s at TCU and Notre Dame respectively. So, as long as we win 4 there's hope.

Side question. How in the world did Kelly go 4-8 at Notre Dame and not get fired?

 

[Osucowboy79]

My apologies to Drake. They are FCS. Still not a “step up” from FBS, though. That is still getting out while the getting is good, and doesn’t change my point about Kansas State. They have had one great coach and no good ones. Time will tell about Klieman.


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Gotta respect the Bulldogs.

 

[RxCowboy]

The fact that you don't consider Nick Saban, the coach with the most national titles, to be a true legendary coach, and the idea that he is somehow second tier is absolutely ridiculous and negates anything you might have to say.

Which "good" coach at Nebraska are you talking about? Frank Solich who really was a good coach and had years of success at his next school or Bo Pelini, the hothead who failed at his next school?

Also, I don't think anyone thinks OSU will hire a "legendary" coach like Bear Bryant anytime after Gundy. Fans aren't asking for a legend. They're not expecting six national titles. They're expecting consistent winning and a conference title more than once in 20 years. They're expecting a coach to care about losses. Those aren't unrealistic expectations for OSU. You are correct that firing and hiring coaches is risky business. It is a lot easier to hire a mediocre coach than a good one. Sometimes, though, it works out (e.g. TCU last year). But, you've go to ask yourself do you keep a once-good coach when he's turned into a mediocre or a coach that sucks just because he's been good historically? I don't think so. Also ask yourself if you can name a good coach who has a terrible crash (like going 2-10 or 3-9) who has recovered to winning ways at the same school? I can't think of one.

Nick Saban, Bear Bryant, and Knute Rockne all coached in different eras. How would they compare in the same era? Difficult to say. But there is certainly room for debate about whether or not Saban is in the same celestial sphere as Bryant and Rockne. Without a doubt Saban is a great coach. He had success at Michigan State and LSU. But Bryant won a national championship at Texas A&M with the Junction Boys, something that Saban hasn’t been able to replicate. And Saban was an utter failure in the NFL. He ain’t Bear Bryant.


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[orngblkzebra]

Nick Saban, Bear Bryant, and Knute Rockne all coached in different eras. How would they compare in the same era? Difficult to say. But there is certainly room for debate about whether or not Saban is in the same celestial sphere as Bryant and Rockne. Without a doubt Saban is a great coach. He had success at Michigan State and LSU. But Bryant won a national championship at Texas A&M with the Junction Boys, something that Saban hasn’t been able to replicate. And Saban was an utter failure in the NFL. He ain’t Bear Bryant.


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I think of Saban as similar to what Gundy is paired with. He is an excellent CEO that has had many, many great assistants that came, won, and moved on to HC positions.

 

[DxCowboy]

Nick Saban, Bear Bryant, and Knute Rockne all coached in different eras. How would they compare in the same era? Difficult to say. But there is certainly room for debate about whether or not Saban is in the same celestial sphere as Bryant and Rockne. Without a doubt Saban is a great coach. He had success at Michigan State and LSU. But Bryant won a national championship at Texas A&M with the Junction Boys, something that Saban hasn’t been able to replicate. And Saban was an utter failure in the NFL. He ain’t Bear Bryant.


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Where's the facepalm?

Saban won a title at LSU.

 

[PokitN]

Keeping Gundy because we could do a lot worse just like (Tech, Nebraska et all) made all the sense in the world when we were winning 7-10 games a yr. That calculous changes if he's only winning 3-4 games a yr. Last yrs collapse was really bad, this yrs season looks to be a dumpster fire, what will happen next yr? If it's another dumpster fire like this yr his seat should be very hot. Of course this doesn't account for his buyout...

 

[zone2poke]

I have a feeling that Flores is the guy long term, but he isn't ready yet. I'm not sure if the three QBs we've played this year will ever be that good. (Rangel has some talent and time to develop though.)

The Cyclone freshman seemed to have our number.

 

[Soothsayer]

Nick Saban, Bear Bryant, and Knute Rockne all coached in different eras. How would they compare in the same era? Difficult to say. But there is certainly room for debate about whether or not Saban is in the same celestial sphere as Bryant and Rockne. Without a doubt Saban is a great coach. He had success at Michigan State and LSU. But Bryant won a national championship at Texas A&M with the Junction Boys, something that Saban hasn’t been able to replicate. And Saban was an utter failure in the NFL. He ain’t Bear Bryant.


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Yeah, he's better than Bryant. He has more national titles (at two schools, as well) and a better winning percentage. He's also not a racist like Bryant was. Btw, Bryant did NOT win a national title at A&M. His best team finished 5th in 1956. OU won its 2nd consecutive national championship that year.

 

[Soothsayer]

Keeping Gundy because we could do a lot worse just like (Tech, Nebraska et all) made all the sense in the world when we were winning 7-10 games a yr. That calculous changes if he's only winning 3-4 games a yr. Last yrs collapse was really bad, this yrs season looks to be a dumpster fire, what will happen next yr? If it's another dumpster fire like this yr his seat should be very hot. Of course this doesn't account for his buyout...

This is correct. 2-10 or 3-9 is a lot different than a disappointing 7-6 or 8-5.

 

[Soothsayer]

I think of Saban as similar to what Gundy is paired with. He is an excellent CEO that has had many, many great assistants that came, won, and moved on to HC positions.

Except he wins titles. Gundy not so much.

 

[orngblkzebra]

Except he wins titles. Gundy not so much.

I was making a simple correlation emphasizing that both are supported during their best years by quality staff...
I would also go on to say that Gundy has done more with less. Rational people know that all the bluebloods have to do is send an envelope with a logo on it and top recruits are vaildated and ready to pick said blueblood. Going back to my earlier point that changing coaches & "getting on NIL bandwagon" isnt going to suddenly change geography & market share.

2011 @ ISU and subsequent title game selection should tell us all we need to know. The landscape has changed in college football but the gap has increased not decreased. Like him or hate him, keep him or Kiffen him...I believe Gundy is fully aware of the landscape and what all schools similar to OSU are up against

 

[Herecomesbullet]

Our overall thoughts on last weeks game in our latest Podcast. Would love for you to check it out in case you might be interested.
Link to Podcast
Link:
O-State Daily Podcast Week 4

 

[RxCowboy]

Where's the facepalm?

Saban won a title at LSU.

View attachment 1463

So did Les Miles and Ed Orgeron. Are they equal to Bear Bryant too? They are good coaches, are they even great ones? Good coaches can win national championships at LSU.

 

[DxCowboy]

So did Les Miles and Ed Orgeron. Are they equal to Bear Bryant too? They are good coaches, are they even great ones? Good coaches can win national championships at LSU.

So you mention Bryant's title at another school, don't mention Saban's, and now you try to marginalize it?

 

[PokitN]

FWIW-Bryant did it longer (so far) but Saban has a chance to pass 7 natl championships and break the tie he has w/ Bryant.

Nick Saban vs Bear Bryant Comparison - Fueled by Sports

Do Sports Fuel You?

www.fueledbysports.com

 

[MustangPokeFan]

Yeah, sometimes. What I see is our pass blocking is better than our run blocking and he bales at times when he doesn’t have to. If you look at the data both Gundy and Rangel have been much better at sustaining drives because they stay in the pocket looking down field until they are actually flushed.


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Gundy doesn’t know who a progression is. If he were the permanent quarterback against quality teams, the interceptions would be off the charts. He stares down his primary receiver, and either forces the ball in or takes off running. He cannot quickly go through progressions and does not look at any other alternative receivers.

 

[Soothsayer]

That was a fun one to look up. Best I could find was a couple of 4-8s. I'm sure I've missed some but there's a start.

Patterson and Brian Kelly both recovered to have 12+ win seasons after 4-8s at TCU and Notre Dame respectively. So, as long as we win 4 there's hope.

Side question. How in the world did Kelly go 4-8 at Notre Dame and not get fired?

I'm surprised Kelly didn't get fired. I guess going to the national title game a couple seasons before bought him a little time. Patterson, I think, just had a short adjustment to the Big 12. It's interesting that those two a dip and then success. I still can't think of any coaches who went on to have success (at same school) after having had the wheels completely fall off the bus. That's why the end of last season and how this season is looking is so concerning. Even Gundy fans have to realize that coaches don't recover from 2 or 3 win seasons. The administration has to realize this too. Unfortunately, that insane contract is going to hurt OSU. That's why I think it was a huge mistake to keep the automatic rollover after last season. The admin should have notified him they were stopping it. Gundy still would've had a 4 year deal. If this season was a rebound, they could always add a year back. There was no need to worry about him going somewhere else. That time has already passed.

 

[Soothsayer]

So did Les Miles and Ed Orgeron. Are they equal to Bear Bryant too? They are good coaches, are they even great ones? Good coaches can win national championships at LSU.

You're being silly. If Miles or Orgeron had rolled off another 5-6 national championships, then, yes, they would be equal to Bear Bryant. You said that Bryant winning at title at A&M (which he didn't, btw) was something Saban didn't do. Well, Saban won a title at LSU. It should probably be noted that LSU's only other title before the Saban era and subsequent coaches was in 1958. It's not like the Tigers were a juggernaut before him.