UrbanCowboy
New member
Fixed that for ya. This is...3 I think in the last 10 years?
Ukraine. Ukraine. Ukraine.
- Thread starter Llcoolw
- Start date
Fixed that for ya. This is...3 I think in the last 10 years?
mugatu
Ranger
Knew MH17 was them, is there another I'm forgetting?
Possible reason for this one I saw was that is was similar to a Ukrainian UAV attack axis, but I'm not smart enough on the situation to know if that's true.
PF5
Sheriff
Positives in this fast-moving situation come at Ukraine's expense
Security correspondent
Things are moving very fast when it comes to efforts to end the war in Ukraine. Unfortunately for Kyiv, it is not in the driving seat.
The news that the two leaders of the two most heavily armed nuclear nations - Russia and the US - have held a seemingly constructive and cordial 90-minute phone call is, at face value, a welcome step towards a more peaceful world.
Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin clearly have a good working relationship, in marked contrast to the previous occupant of the White House, Joe Biden.
So for now, the temperature has been lowered.
But this positive move may well come at Ukraine’s expense.
Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth laid it out in crystal clear terms where the US stands on peace for Ukraine, in words that will no doubt be welcomed by Moscow.
No US troops for Ukraine in any future security arrangement, no realistic possibility of returning to its pre-2014 borders (when Russia occupied and annexed Crimea and backed insurgents in the Donbas), and no likelihood of Ukraine joining Nato.
These were all clearly stated goals made by President Volodymyr Zelensky and his government - and they come on top of a dire situation on the battlefield where Russia’s superior numbers are enabling it to slowly push deeper into Ukrainian territory.
but more than likely kept to Vladimir’s Russia 
UrbanCowboy
New member
Positives in this fast-moving situation come at Ukraine's expense
Frank Gardner
Security correspondent
Image source,Getty Images
Things are moving very fast when it comes to efforts to end the war in Ukraine. Unfortunately for Kyiv, it is not in the driving seat.
The news that the two leaders of the two most heavily armed nuclear nations - Russia and the US - have held a seemingly constructive and cordial 90-minute phone call is, at face value, a welcome step towards a more peaceful world.
Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin clearly have a good working relationship, in marked contrast to the previous occupant of the White House, Joe Biden.
So for now, the temperature has been lowered.
But this positive move may well come at Ukraine’s expense.
Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth laid it out in crystal clear terms where the US stands on peace for Ukraine, in words that will no doubt be welcomed by Moscow.
No US troops for Ukraine in any future security arrangement, no realistic possibility of returning to its pre-2014 borders (when Russia occupied and annexed Crimea and backed insurgents in the Donbas), and no likelihood of Ukraine joining Nato.
These were all clearly stated goals made by President Volodymyr Zelensky and his government - and they come on top of a dire situation on the battlefield where Russia’s superior numbers are enabling it to slowly push deeper into Ukrainian territory.
Soo... everything Russia wanted. Fantastic negotiating. Can't wait until we repeat this for Moldova in 3 years.
I mean, think about it. If you were Putin, would you stop? I wouldn't. Why would I? I will suffer almost no consequences if I just stick to my guns.
Yeah he’ll get tough on Putin. /s
Like most Americans used to, I support freedom. I support Ukraine's sovereignty. If they wanted to cede to the invader, then I would support that. If I were fighting for my country, I would hope for support from my allies, not forcing me to surrender against my will even if they were patronizingly claiming to be doing it for my own good.
And let's be real. If Biden somehow stated that since Russia lost a lot of troops in their invasion they should get Ukrainian land before starting any negotiation, you would be outraged and claiming it is his senility. What chapter of "The Art of the Deal" do you cede to the other side? In real estate, this would be like "Well, they grossly overpaid for this property, and they don't have the resources to continue to manage it very well so we are going to have to pay them top dollar to cover their unexpected losses."
It is a travesty and anyone who hasn't bought into MAGA hook, line, and sinker would admit it. This isn't saving Ukrainian lives. This is assuring that the dead Ukrainians died in vain and bolstering Russia's resolve.
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Neither. Give them the intel and weapons to push the Russians and their proxy out of as much land as they can possibly retake, THEN go to the negotiating table. When fighting stops and the terms are signed join NATO.
There some context being put to this that just isn't there. Saying that "Russia lost a lot of soldiers and will more than likely not give up what they have taken" isn't the same as saying "they lost a lot of soldiers and deserve to keep what they have taken."
That’s a great answer with no substance. You would be a beautiful 15 second blurb on the news but that isnt an answer. The time to do what you were saying was before the second strongest military nation on earth invaded. But we didn’t do that or anything else to end this for the last three years and here we are. Russia invaded and that is wrong on every level but it’s done. So do you want Ukraine to be destroyed as slowly or quickly as Russia chooses…or do you want direct US/NATO war with Russia?
So you want to keep fighting for “freedom” in Ukraine which is already dubious given their entire sovereign history they haven’t been more than a chess piece….do you want them driven into to ground at the costs of thousands more lives and billions of our dollars or do you want direct war between NATO and Russia? Otherwise Russia is walking away with something.
So you are for direct involvement….intelligence personnel directly engaged and exponentially more arms shipments….. got it. Remember long ago in December when it was all they don’t have any weapons they haven’t used then they fired missile never seen in war that Ukraine has no defense for…..that was during this basketball season and you’ve already forgotten.
Ukraine cannot do anything to Russia without direct support. So you vote hot war.
UrbanCowboy
New member
This would have more credibility if we haven't been giving weapons to Ukraine for the last 3 years without it escalating to a hot war. You just have to make it more expensive for the Russians than it's worth.
Your whole schtick of "well, it means every Ukrainian dies or the US gets involved directly, there are NO OTHER OPTIONS" is pedantic and simply not true. What kind of foreign policy is that? Let other countries do whatever they want, whenever they want?
UrbanCowboy
New member
Does this mean Ukraine gets to keep its gains in Russia?
It gives off a very Neville Chamberlain "Peace in Our Times" by giving up the Sudentenland vibe.
No, they haven’t stolen any of our territory. But I do hold the line on: if Putin isn’t punished and corralled he’ll attack NATO next. Bad Vlad wants to remake the Soviet Union.
Haaaaave ya met Donny
mugatu
Ranger
...and China will take Taiwan shortly after
Our territory......what happened to Ukrainian sovereignty?
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