DING DING DING first "straw man" of the new site
The Death Spiral
- Thread starter RxCowboy
- Start date
- Status
Disagree with the message being advanced? Wut? I'm a huge 2A supporter, but walking through the middle of a heavily populated urban area on a Saturday afternoon with an AR fully kitted out slung over your shoulder is 100% meant to provoke others. I own ARs and have no problem with them. I do have problems with people walking around attempting to provoke others. Its stupid and counterproductive. As a 2A supporter and gun owner, I see people like that and cringe knowing that people on the fence view all gun owners like that. They are poor representatives, and do damage to the issue.
Last edited:
We aren't on OP. I'm not going to scour the internet for these great multitudes. I'm not clutching pearls. I have LGBTQ friends, so this month doesn't make me uncomfortable. I just saw a stupid meme, and foolishly attempted to understand the mindset of the fool who posted it. I got the answer to my original query, and as surprising as it is, I'll have to accept it.
My perspective is from a person with previously pretty little awareness of trans and non-binary specifically, and just not really having much framework for the current issues they are facing. I (like many others) aren't extremists because we aren't aware. We just don't know. My friend patiently walking me through their reasons in an effort to educate is infinitely more progressive than the approach you and several others are suggesting as the only way to achieve what you want. But......keep bombing those Afghan villages. I'm sure you'll get all the terrorists someday.
I just disagree that change always has to be violent. Change through education and relationships can be just as effective. It takes longer to achieve that, but its also more sustainable.
Last edited:
Now a dumb meme wishing homophobes an uncomfortable month is "violent". Hyperbole much?
People being oppressed/discriminated against should be patient and kind and educate those that hate them....ask pretty please and wait their turn until people see the error of their ways on their own timeline/accord.
Got it.
People being oppressed/discriminated against should be patient and kind and educate those that hate them....ask pretty please and wait their turn until people see the error of their ways on their own timeline/accord.
Got it.
PF5
Deputy
I have a married, gay daughter...the discrimination they encounter is quite sickening...the backwards ways of our country in regards to 'equal rights' is disheartening...they are in discussions/planning to leave this state for a more 'gay friendly' one...
I have no time for, nor respect for anyone who makes fun of, discriminates, looks down upon members of the lgbtq+ community...that's all...
I have no time for, nor respect for anyone who makes fun of, discriminates, looks down upon members of the lgbtq+ community...that's all...
Everyone has family that is ignorant and are biased. My ex-wife's family discriminates against other family members based on if the kids are athletes. Be honest, it's not just the homophobe thing, it's often just favoritism based on family dynamics
Its not the same thing at all. Favoritism =/= discrimination. My wife's aunt put her son through converson therapy as a teenager and has banned him and his partner from family gatherings because of his sexuality as an adult. She explicitly states this as the reason and says he is welcome if he "changes his sinful ways".
There are stupid people everywhere. You can't fix stupid, and it is based on someone not meeting expectations we put on others. You can't fix stupid and pound people into being accepting of differences. You don't want anyone telling you how to live, or your family that chooses to live a different lifestyle, but heaven forbid someone fails to conform to your expectations for them.
Out of curiosity, what do you think the best outcome is for your wife's aunt, and what do you think would help her progress towards being more humane towards her son? That's the goal, right? To encourage people to love and accept each other...?
There is room for difference of opinion, but when behavior crosses into abusive territory, it is a completely different story. Then it is about protecting the victim of abuse first and foremost.
I never said anything about pounding anyone. Those are your words, not mine.
Your presupposition that being more humane toward a perpetrator of abuse is completely flawed. That isn't what psychologists recommend in abusive relationships or with those who exhibit abusive behavior--they recommend putting up clear boundaries and creating distance.
There is a gulf between calling someone names and being completely accommodating to them. Being bold and demanding fair treatment is that middle path and is one of the few things that have worked on a larger scale historically.
Your presupposition that I'm talking about perpetrators of abuse is also completely flawed. Its why real conversations are so difficult these days, because everyone is so quick to label other people their sworn enemy unless they are instantly lockstep with their ideals and practices. Believe it or not, there are huge numbers of people that simply haven't gone through the work to understand every issue in the world like so many on this site seem to have achieved. There's a process involved for most of us mortals that requires time, effort, patience, and humility on both sides of the conversation in order to gain understanding.
To summarize...
I agree that abusers must be met with a level of force to correct society.
I don't agree that such force must always seek to dehumanize the perpetrators.
I think people can and do change, even abusers.
I think the rush to create enemies is causing more damage in society than it needs to.
I think a huge % of the population has no established position on many issues, including this one. These people are not enemies. Being antagonistic and annoying is not a great approach if the goal is to win these people over.
I think more than anything, I just have a huge problem with dehumanization in general, even of abusers. It doesn't seem like a rational approach, and I don't care which "side" is instigating it. Its a losing strategy.
Last edited:
So you think that a critique on the best methods of changing society are oppressive, discriminatory, and hateful? Hyperbole much? I was just questioning why, if your goal is positive change, you would seek to piss people off (yes, even those who could be considered enemies)? Being annoying doesn't make the world better.
I would love for there to be more healthy conversations about the 2A and to see current opponents come to see my personal views of why its important for our society. A girl walking through OKC with a kitted out AR15 seeking to make people uncomfortable undermines that effort, just like a stupid meme mocking and antagonizing people undermines this one.
I feel like we are having two different conversations here. You are addressing points I never made or alluded to.
Again, being bold and demanding equal treatment =/= dehumanizing people.
He’s doing it with me too.
No, I didn’t say your critique was oppressive, discriminatory, or hateful.
Clearly.
I do think your suggestion/critique is a really naive and incredibly dumb idea on how to deal with people who are oppressive, discriminatory and hateful towards particular sectors of our society. Being nice, patient, and respectful in the face of prejudice, discrimination, and hate in the hopes that they will some day see the light is just an incredibly stupid notion.
I’m a proponent of Popper’s position and arguments concerning the “Paradox of Tolerance”.
Last edited:
Ok, by pounding I meant beating people over the head with your theology. Sorry for your confusion.
I'm not even talking about the oppressive, discriminatory, or hateful thoughts and behaviors. That is a straw man. Such cartoonish conditions don't exist in the vast majority of our population. Most people are likely just unaware of the issue or disengaged from the news in general, but are otherwise reasonable, normal people. Addressing that group with basic respect will yield superior results compared to being snarky, annoying, evangelistic, or militant.
Do you really perceive the world so black and white? As if all people are totally set in their ways, and all people fall in only two categories (friend / foe), therefore the ONLY way to instigate change is through force? If so, I disagree, and have witnessed amazing results via the nice/patient/respectful approach compared to going guns a blazin' on every topic.
Personally, I'm glad that my non-binary friend took the respectful approach to educating me instead of the militant one. It had a positive result. The militant approach would have been unnecessary, and would have likely created a false divide between us. My argument is that there are way more people like me in society than the cartoonish, extreme oppressors that you're addressing.
Last edited:
We are definitely having two different conversations. But its because you and a few others have falsely concluded that anyone who criticizes annoying behavior are lumped in with the abusive crowd, as if there's no in between. Your presuppositions in this conversation are what got us off on the tangent. I started the convo, because I think that militant, annoying behavior hurts the overall cause to educate the broader (non-abusive, non-oppressive, non-discriminatory) population, and it seems unnecessarily destructive. Just like a girl walking down a busy street in OKC with an AR15 is unnecessarily destructive to 2A advocacy...
Basically, being a prick about things just isn't a great way to convince people that your views are superior. That's all.
- Status
