Wind & solar now producing more American electricity than coal for the first time

[andylicious]

Whine away Don. But how much are you making off them? Or are you too far east to collect? Guess you’re just a drill baby drill, burn baby burn type guy. Obviously you think climate change is nonsense or you don’t really care about the future of your children and grandchildren. Guess you think turbines kill whales here. Are you for opening up ALL of our parks for oil and gas exploration? To hell with native Americans rights, let’s put more pipelines across their sacred grounds. Let’s spread out and extend oil and gas to every square inch of our country, and offshore in pristine waters.It’s all about how much our energy cost taxpayers, environment be damned.

Easy there Sancho, you are in a lather. I work very hard at being a little environmental warrior. I’m a no-till farmer, I use cover crops to absorb carbon dioxide, I manage ground to prevent erosion, pretty much I put my money to what I say I believe.

I can see wind turbines from my front porch, I’ve had solar offers that I have turned down because so far there is no money in escrow to clean the mess up in my grandchildren’s generation and return it to ag use. I’m not interested in dealing with them.

Let’s return to your original insult, they are causing a major taxation issue in Oklahoma. I am left aghast that a teacher or former teacher isn’t concerned about that. The “renewables” pay no production tax, have a depreciation schedule no else has, and have slashed their ad valorem tax by 48% all while uglying up Oklahoma and driving electric prices up. It’s hurting every school in the state, it’s hurting rural ambulances and libraries, and it is a burgeoning issue so you feel better switching on a light.

However, facts don’t bother you, do they Sancho?

 

[Pokey]

Easy there Sancho, you are in a lather. I work very hard at being a little environmental warrior. I’m a no-till farmer, I use cover crops to absorb carbon dioxide, I manage ground to prevent erosion, pretty much I put my money to what I say I believe.

I can see wind turbines from my front porch, I’ve had solar offers that I have turned down because so far there is no money in escrow to clean the mess up in my grandchildren’s generation and return it to ag use. I’m not interested in dealing with them.

Let’s return to your original insult, they are causing a major taxation issue in Oklahoma. I am left aghast that a teacher or former teacher isn’t concerned about that. The “renewables” pay no production tax, have a depreciation schedule no else has, and have slashed their ad valorem tax by 48% all while uglying up Oklahoma and driving electric prices up. It’s hurting every school in the state, it’s hurting rural ambulances and libraries, and it is a burgeoning issue so you feel better switching on a light.

However, facts don’t bother you, do they Sancho?

You’re putting your own words and thoughts on me. Sure I’d like to see schools funded better, but let’s be honest, wind turbines aren’t the only Industries paying minimal taxes. Apartments and mobile homes hardly pay taxes to support the schools they fill up. Churches and their hospitals sure don’t pay. I sure don’t think turbines are uglier than pump jacks and tank batteries, and they don’t leak into water supplies. You change your farming practices BECAUSE you save money, not because it’s the environmentally friendly thing to do. Probably have Energy Star rated appliances and LED lighting for the same reason, but those of us who can afford to help solve the problem should. Even though these changes help they’ll not ever make a huge difference until the costs come down. Alternative energy will become more and more efficient as the volume increases and battery technology improves. Already Iron/air batteries are being manufactured that last 100’s of hours. Still, I find it ironic that someone who personally gains from annual subsidies denies them for others.

 

[andylicious]

You’re putting your own words and thoughts on me. Sure I’d like to see schools funded better, but let’s be honest, wind turbines aren’t the only Industries paying minimal taxes. Apartments and mobile homes hardly pay taxes to support the schools they fill up. Churches and their hospitals sure don’t pay. I sure don’t think turbines are uglier than pump jacks and tank batteries, and they don’t leak into water supplies. You change your farming practices BECAUSE you save money, not because it’s the environmentally friendly thing to do. Probably have Energy Star rated appliances and LED lighting for the same reason, but those of us who can afford to help solve the problem should. Even though these changes help they’ll not ever make a huge difference until the costs come down. Alternative energy will become more and more efficient as the volume increases and battery technology improves. Already Iron/air batteries are being manufactured that last 100’s of hours. Still, I find it ironic that someone who personally gains from annual subsidies denies them for others.

Why must you insult and speak of things you know nothing of? Admit it, emotionally you are invested in the alternative energy lifestyle. That’s ok, I’m sure there’s a place for alts as Hackleman Poke so eloquently points out.

The alts need to pay their taxes, I pay my taxes on every mill I bring in (that’s 1/1000th of a penny for future reference) even on the “subsidies” you are so eager to complain about they should do the same. Trailer parks and apartments pay their taxes. Even preachers, Sunday School teachers, and hospital staff pay their taxes. Why shouldn’t alts pay taxes? I thought you were all about fairness.

 

[Pokey]

Why must you insult and speak of things you know nothing of? Admit it, emotionally you are invested in the alternative energy lifestyle. That’s ok, I’m sure there’s a place for alts as Hackleman Poke so eloquently points out.

The alts need to pay their taxes, I pay my taxes on every mill I bring in (that’s 1/1000th of a penny for future reference) even on the “subsidies” you are so eager to complain about they should do the same. Trailer parks and apartments pay their taxes. Even preachers, Sunday School teachers, and hospital staff pay their taxes. Why shouldn’t alts pay taxes? I thought you were all about fairness.

A tag on a trailer pays a minuscule portion of a house in taxes. The owner of apartments pays taxes, but all those parents and students that fill the classrooms pay no property taxes. You’d like to blame windmills for loss of rural hospital but most of the damage was done by NOT accepting Medicare expansion. Took a forced vote of the people. I understand mils Don schools depend on them . Unlike you I’ll admit I don’t know everything. But I do believe the science, and recognize hypocrisy when I see it. Do all those RV’s in western Oklahoma full of foreign labor pay property taxes? Or do they just crowd the schools and require hiring interpreters?

 

[Duke Silver]

A tag on a trailer pays a minuscule portion of a house in taxes. The owner of apartments pays taxes, but all those parents and students that fill the classrooms pay no property taxes. You’d like to blame windmills for loss of rural hospital but most of the damage was done by NOT accepting Medicare expansion. Took a forced vote of the people. I understand mils Don schools depend on them . Unlike you I’ll admit I don’t know everything. But I do believe the science, and recognize hypocrisy when I see it. Do all those RV’s in western Oklahoma full of foreign labor pay property taxes? Or do they just crowd the schools and require hiring interpreters?

If there is property owned, I assure you someone is paying property taxes on it.

 

[andylicious]

A tag on a trailer pays a minuscule portion of a house in taxes. The owner of apartments pays taxes, but all those parents and students that fill the classrooms pay no property taxes. You’d like to blame windmills for loss of rural hospital but most of the damage was done by NOT accepting Medicare expansion. Took a forced vote of the people. I understand mils Don schools depend on them . Unlike you I’ll admit I don’t know everything. But I do believe the science, and recognize hypocrisy when I see it. Do all those RV’s in western Oklahoma full of foreign labor pay property taxes? Or do they just crowd the schools and require hiring interpreters?

1. Trailer houses are depreciating assets
2. The property tax on apartments and hotels are calculated by occupancy and actual book value of the buildings.
3. I said nothing about rural hospitals, it is rural ambulance services that are negatively affected.
4. I haven’t ran across any RV parks with foreign labor, however I have seen lots of Caucasian American, African American, Native American and Hispanic American men living in RV camps during the week working away from their families to build wind systems, solar systems, work in the oil field or work on infrastructure. There aren’t many wives and children in those parks.
5. As far as I know Guymon is the only district with that problem. That would be due to Seaboard and the processing plant.

Why go after migrant workers? Isn’t there a dignity in work?

 

[Pokey]

If there is property owned, I assure you someone is paying property taxes on it.

I know that it just doesn’t come close to what a permanent home pays to schools. Some towns ban apartments and limit trailer parks for this reason.

 

[Pokey]

1. Trailer houses are depreciating assets
2. The property tax on apartments and hotels are calculated by occupancy and actual book value of the buildings.
3. I said nothing about rural hospitals, it is rural ambulance services that are negatively affected.
4. I haven’t ran across any RV parks with foreign labor, however I have seen lots of Caucasian American, African American, Native American and Hispanic American men living in RV camps during the week working away from their families to build wind systems, solar systems, work in the oil field or work on infrastructure. There aren’t many wives and children in those parks.
5. As far as I know Guymon is the only district with that problem. That would be due to Seaboard and the processing plant.

Why go after migrant workers? Isn’t there a dignity in work?

I’ll disagree. Most of those workers are in the pipeline or oil and gas industry. You don’t talk to many working teachers then. They’d be thrilled to have the help of translators. It’s pretty much state wide.

 

[andylicious]

I’ll disagree. Most of those workers are in the pipeline or oil and gas industry. You don’t talk to many working teachers then. They’d be thrilled to have the help of translators. It’s pretty much state wide.

Ok, maybe we could pay said translators with tax money collected from corporations and businesses?

 

[Polds4OSU]

Ohh yeah ..Elon going after that big tax money

 

[Donnyboy]

The factory has more than 30MW of load and you can see the back up generators from the road......or to put it another way....it doesn't even work for the people who claim it does.

 

[Pokey]

See any stackable iron/air batteries installed ? They’re about the same size as generators.

 

[Polds4OSU]

The factory has more than 30MW of load and you can see the back up generators from the road......or to put it another way....it doesn't even work for the people who claim it does.

They never made any claim they were going to run the factory on full solar alone, just said they were putting 30 MW of solar production in the roof of it and that when they are done it would be the largest in the world

Is there any issue with a plant getting 30MW of power from the sun and buying the rest ? Where is the issue in that? It is a way for them to reduce their energy cost, by utilizing both traditional power and solar power at the same time

 

[Donnyboy]

They never made any claim they were going to run the factory on full solar alone, just said they were putting 30 MW of solar production in the roof of it and that when they are done it would be the largest in the world

Is there any issue with a plant getting 30MW of power from the sun and buying the rest ? Where is the issue in that? It is a way for them to reduce their energy cost, by utilizing both traditional power and solar power at the same time

There's no issue with it at all but I keep trying to relay the scale things. That factory is enormous it has a huge footprint...it isn't built up it's built out ....and you can't power it with the largest rooftop solar application in the world. Wind/solar will never work. Let's focus on an actual solution.

 

[Polds4OSU]

There's no issue with it at all but I keep trying to relay the scale things. That factory is enormous it has a huge footprint...it isn't built up it's built out ....and you can't power it with the largest rooftop solar application in the world. Wind/solar will never work. Let's focus on an actual solution.

The efficiency of solar panels that have been installed up until today is ~12-15%..meaning if all the solar panels in the world..they only have the ability to convert 12%-15% of the sun they received into energy


Now in 2021 for the first time ever more than 50% of NEW solar panels installed would have the capacity to convert up to ~20-25% of sunlight into energy


Theoretically...solar panels have the potential to convert up to 87% of the sunlight they see into energy

They are currently testing some prototypes that are consistently converting 42% of sunlight into energy

Can you imagine this 30MW system now that is running at a 12-15% efficiency rating and what it's output would be at 40%, 60% or even 80% efficiency

That IS the solution...but y will take time to get the efficiency needed , but they are on the right track

 

[CowboyJD]

There's no issue with it at all but I keep trying to relay the scale things. That factory is enormous it has a huge footprint...it isn't built up it's built out ....and you can't power it with the largest rooftop solar application in the world. Wind/solar will never work. Let's focus on an actual solution.

Wind/solar isn't working right now.

Saying conclusively that it never will....no matter the technological advancements that might be made....is kind of dumb.

 

[andylicious]

Wind/solar isn't working right now.

Saying conclusively that it never will....no matter the technological advancements that might be made....is kind of dumb.

You are correct on both points. It’s got a long ways to go

 

[Donnyboy]

Wind/solar isn't working right now.

Saying conclusively that it never will....no matter the technological advancements that might be made....is kind of dumb.

I hear you....but until we can accurately predict (>95%) the weather...and not sunny/cloudy/hot/cold like wind at 15mph not 10 from exact directions.....by hour well in advance (like days/weeks) or change the laws of physics with relation to the control of voltage and frequency it isn't. Long before that better tech will come along. All we are doing now is throwing money away. The grids number one job is to be reliable....weather based non-dispatchable power will never be the answer. Something you can't turn on when you need it is by definition unreliable. The physics part is also unavoidable....maybe big maybe doable....but you are talking a complete overhaul the current transmission and distribution system and that is going to cost trillions...remove all the mechanical inertia from the grid and you will have to install thousands of support devices and change voltages on both the low and high ends of the system making it less efficient requiring more non-dispatchable power. When lightning strikes and 100 MW are instantly taken off the grid it's spinning generators excitation packages responding in seconds that balance it out.....when you have a sudden surge of voltage it's large spinning generators that "droop" to arrest it. A collection of tiny turbines can't do that, in fact they exacerbate the issues....solar just knocks itself off with protection relays. The only thing wind and solar have going for them is their carbon footprint....otherwise it's the least efficient/most expensive/least reliable known way to make electricity. The better ways are not getting the attention they need because all the money is being wasted on wind/solar/battery.

 

[Donnyboy]

The efficiency of solar panels that have been installed up until today is ~12-15%..meaning if all the solar panels in the world..they only have the ability to convert 12%-15% of the sun they received into energy


Now in 2021 for the first time ever more than 50% of NEW solar panels installed would have the capacity to convert up to ~20-25% of sunlight into energy


Theoretically...solar panels have the potential to convert up to 87% of the sunlight they see into energy

They are currently testing some prototypes that are consistently converting 42% of sunlight into energy

Can you imagine this 30MW system now that is running at a 12-15% efficiency rating and what it's output would be at 40%, 60% or even 80% efficiency

That IS the solution...but y will take time to get the efficiency needed , but they are on the right track

That is the solution for more MW's. How are you going to run a stable grid with non-dispatchable technology that can't control voltage or frequency? It's not load is 100 MW I can make 100 MW it's a lot more complex than that. Saying we have the ability to produce enough power to power America with the sun is like saying we are going to score every play on offense by walking the ball in the end zone.

 

[Polds4OSU]

That is the solution for more MW's. How are you going to run a stable grid with non-dispatchable technology that can't control voltage or frequency? It's not load is 100 MW I can make 100 MW it's a lot more complex than that. Saying we have the ability to produce enough power to power America with the sun is like saying we are going to score every play on offense by walking the ball in the end zone.

this was the manager of the Giga Factory in Texas talking about creating 30 MW of power from the Sun they don't have to pull from Texas Private Grid that is already having issues. This is a huge win for the Texas Grid. Can you imagine the Texas Grid if each and every company in Texas would just adopt solar and shoot for producing 2-5 MW on their own via the Sun?

Do you not think at some point we will have the ability to control voltage and frequency

Tesla did 30 MW on this building, What if they got 500 or 1000 more companies to do 2-3 MW each on their massive buildings in Texas and relieve some of the strain on the current Texas Grid. Wouldn't that be a win for all Texans ?


Now in a separate and totally unrelated event, Elon Musk made the claim he could power the entire US with the Sun...that is a whole nother issue in itself and very skeptical he could make good on that claim for me. However ,you can't take Elon's speculative words about what he "THINKS" he can do and undermine what is ACTUALLY happening on the Tesla factory. In reality they are actually going to produce a big chunk of their own MW needs and relieve some stress on the Texas Grid in doing so.