Wind & solar now producing more American electricity than coal for the first time

this was the manager of the Giga Factory in Texas talking about creating 30 MW of power from the Sun they don't have to pull from Texas Private Grid that is already having issues. This is a huge win for the Texas Grid. Can you imagine the Texas Grid if each and every company in Texas would just adopt solar and shoot for producing 2-5 MW on their own via the Sun?

Do you not think at some point we will have the ability to control voltage and frequency

Tesla did 30 MW on this building, What if they got 500 or 1000 more companies to do 2-3 MW each on their massive buildings in Texas and relieve some of the strain on the current Texas Grid. Wouldn't that be a win for all Texans ?


Now in a separate and totally unrelated event, Elon Musk made the claim he could power the entire US with the Sun...that is a whole nother issue in itself and very skeptical he could make good on that claim for me. However ,you can't take Elon's speculative words about what he "THINKS" he can do and undermine what is ACTUALLY happening on the Tesla factory. In reality they are actually going to produce a big chunk of their own MW needs and relieve some stress on the Texas Grid in doing so.
If everyone wants to have solar on their roof and batteries to back themselves up I'm all for it.....but disconnect from the bulk electric system and survive on your own. What is happening here is they want their cake and eat it too. That factory way way more than likely has a load of greater than 30 MW (I don't know the exact load but the climate control for a building that big has to be 30MW alone). So this massive structure can't support itself....so what they want to do is lean on the grid when they want but make their own when they want. In other words all the thermal/nuclear facilities that have to exist to keep it stable can't run routinely or as designed then get blamed for every event when they aren't perfect despite the fact wind and solar missing is always the reason for scarcity in texas....as in 100% of the time. Texas didn't have problems till we abandoned thermal development and went all wind/solar for new build. The approved project list is public....anyone can look it up. (some may remember from the old board when I said Pickens Plan was a farce because he never had a single approved project on any grid and anyone could have looked that up at any time....and it never happened) There is just now a couple of thermal projects for years there were none. Well now we are dependent on the weather and unstable. Another public notice you can all look up ERCOT has an AAN in place this Wednesday when the weather is going to be high in the 80s low in the 60s just a run of the mill day......wanna know why? Long range wind forecast missed and the grid could be short. ERCOT's solution....force thermal units to come back from outages early or delay them to accommodate.....or make themselves less reliable and eat cost to accommodate the non-dispatchable power. It doesn't work folks. As long as it depends on the weather it won't. It's been a massive subsidized money grab and we are all starting to pay for it directly as opposed to it just going on the deficit pile. Power prices in Texas went relatively unchanged from the 90s till 2021.....not anymore. ERCOT has listed an 800 MW coal facility commissioned in the 70's by name as plant they want to bring back to be winter ready. There goes your carbon footprint.

The voltage and frequency thing could be a possibility at an extreme cost. Batteries can help and almost instantaneously but the problem is if you use them they are in constant states of discharging and charging thus you can't count of them for their full capacity for the times they say they can provide. So you are planning reserves for a day and think you have 20K of battery with say a 12 hour life and when the time comes you have 14K for 9 hours. That gap is a big area going black. Solar can help if you throw a capacitor bank or static frequency converter on at the addition of millions in cost but it can't do more in output than it already is.....so you could use a device to convert the source from pure MW's to less MW's to control an event but you can't ask the sun to shine harder. Wind is actual turbines but tiny ones......you can again put very expensive devices at farms but you can't increase output and without them they are slaves to the grid due to their size.....even if in the coming years they double in size this will still be a problem.....so the grid droops and all the tiny turbines make a little less energy and make the problem worse you are getting 10K MW from 3000 windmills and they all make 0.3 less MW and now you are another 900 short when you need help now ....voltage starts screaming and they all increase 0.3 and you are burning the lines. And while you can back them off, and this routinely happens, you can't turn the wind up. You also can't count on renewable resources for restoration of areas impacted by storms/load sheds/local outages. If you have 2500 MW of load to get back quick after a hurricane you can't put that on wind assets that could vacillate by the hour and can't handle large influx loads and the shock they put on the system. Inertia....thats what holds it together big spinning generators or large dynamic sources....till we make batteries that can handle the shock of large load changes and discharge over days and install 10s of thousands of capacity of them it's large generators. So in this incredibly fast changing world we should be looking to things that have the potential to work not dumping money at things that never will.

30 MW is a hiccup....it doesn't move anything. ERCOT peak is 85.5K....so %0.04 percent is what we are talking here and it's the biggest rooftop installation in the world. You have to grasp the scale. And this is just sunny windy Texas....the whole nation is a completely different ball of wax.
 
If everyone wants to have solar on their roof and batteries to back themselves up I'm all for it.....but disconnect from the bulk electric system and survive on your own. What is happening here is they want their cake and eat it too. That factory way way more than likely has a load of greater than 30 MW (I don't know the exact load but the climate control for a building that big has to be 30MW alone). So this massive structure can't support itself....so what they want to do is lean on the grid when they want but make their own when they want. In other words all the thermal/nuclear facilities that have to exist to keep it stable can't run routinely or as designed then get blamed for every event when they aren't perfect despite the fact wind and solar missing is always the reason for scarcity in texas....as in 100% of the time. Texas didn't have problems till we abandoned thermal development and went all wind/solar for new build. The approved project list is public....anyone can look it up. (some may remember from the old board when I said Pickens Plan was a farce because he never had a single approved project on any grid and anyone could have looked that up at any time....and it never happened) There is just now a couple of thermal projects for years there were none. Well now we are dependent on the weather and unstable. Another public notice you can all look up ERCOT has an AAN in place this Wednesday when the weather is going to be high in the 80s low in the 60s just a run of the mill day......wanna know why? Long range wind forecast missed and the grid could be short. ERCOT's solution....force thermal units to come back from outages early or delay them to accommodate.....or make themselves less reliable and eat cost to accommodate the non-dispatchable power. It doesn't work folks. As long as it depends on the weather it won't. It's been a massive subsidized money grab and we are all starting to pay for it directly as opposed to it just going on the deficit pile. Power prices in Texas went relatively unchanged from the 90s till 2021.....not anymore. ERCOT has listed an 800 MW coal facility commissioned in the 70's by name as plant they want to bring back to be winter ready. There goes your carbon footprint.

The voltage and frequency thing could be a possibility at an extreme cost. Batteries can help and almost instantaneously but the problem is if you use them they are in constant states of discharging and charging thus you can't count of them for their full capacity for the times they say they can provide. So you are planning reserves for a day and think you have 20K of battery with say a 12 hour life and when the time comes you have 14K for 9 hours. That gap is a big area going black. Solar can help if you throw a capacitor bank or static frequency converter on at the addition of millions in cost but it can't do more in output than it already is.....so you could use a device to convert the source from pure MW's to less MW's to control an event but you can't ask the sun to shine harder. Wind is actual turbines but tiny ones......you can again put very expensive devices at farms but you can't increase output and without them they are slaves to the grid due to their size.....even if in the coming years they double in size this will still be a problem.....so the grid droops and all the tiny turbines make a little less energy and make the problem worse you are getting 10K MW from 3000 windmills and they all make 0.3 less MW and now you are another 900 short when you need help now ....voltage starts screaming and they all increase 0.3 and you are burning the lines. And while you can back them off, and this routinely happens, you can't turn the wind up. You also can't count on renewable resources for restoration of areas impacted by storms/load sheds/local outages. If you have 2500 MW of load to get back quick after a hurricane you can't put that on wind assets that could vacillate by the hour and can't handle large influx loads and the shock they put on the system. Inertia....thats what holds it together big spinning generators or large dynamic sources....till we make batteries that can handle the shock of large load changes and discharge over days and install 10s of thousands of capacity of them it's large generators. So in this incredibly fast changing world we should be looking to things that have the potential to work not dumping money at things that never will.

30 MW is a hiccup....it doesn't move anything. ERCOT peak is 85.5K....so %0.04 percent is what we are talking here and it's the biggest rooftop installation in the world. You have to grasp the scale. And this is just sunny windy Texas....the whole nation is a completely different ball of wax.
It’s occasionally an offset to a little bit of power and not off the grid?
 
Then take away the tax breaks for both industries and let them compete on a level playing field. I'm certainly not an expert and don't claim to be but everything I've seen says that wind and solar are pretty inefficient ways to produce electricity and the tax breaks they receive are quite a bit bigger than those enjoyed by the oil and gas industry.


Comparison of Major Tax Incentives

According to the Joint Committee on Taxation, the production tax credit for wind is estimated to cost taxpayers $4.9 billion in fiscal year 2020, the investment tax credit for solar is estimated to cost $2.4 billion, and the three tax deductions for oil and gas listed below combined are estimated to cost $0.9 billion. Clearly, the wind and solar tax credits outweigh the tax deductions of oil and gas companies by a factor of 8 in fiscal year 2020. Further, this comparison does not include the tax deductions that the wind and solar industries get for depreciation and manufacturing.
So, we give one industry tax breaks and other government incentives for decades then when a new industry starts we say, “Hey, no more breaks! We need a level playing field.”

Maybe we stop the breaks for the stable, old industry and when the new one has had the same number of years of government help we stop it all. Isn’t that level?
 
So, we give one industry tax breaks and other government incentives for decades then when a new industry starts we say, “Hey, no more breaks! We need a level playing field.”

Maybe we stop the breaks for the stable, old industry and when the new one has had the same number of years of government help we stop it all. Isn’t that level?
I agree with no breaks. Local property tax breaks excluded that should be up to the local voter…..

One difference here is renewables get a production subsidy on top of the tax break so while I agree that fossil fuels have had their share of tax breaks I’ve never known of a power plant to get paid directly for production outside of whatever market it’s in.

Wind and solar turn in negative numbers for verifiable costs. So there is more at play than just the tax breaks described above.
 
I agree with no breaks. Local property tax breaks excluded that should be up to the local voter…..

One difference here is renewables get a production subsidy on top of the tax break so while I agree that fossil fuels have had their share of tax breaks I’ve never known of a power plant to get paid directly for production outside of whatever market it’s in.

Wind and solar turn in negative numbers for verifiable costs. So there is more at play than just the tax breaks described above.
I'm not knowledgable on all of the different government largess from one industry to another. But, fledgling industries are often not profitable initially relative to the old school. Amazon spent many years not profitable relative to Target. If in 2002 you would have asked anyone if they would be willing to give up Target for Amazon nobody would. But, look now and nobody would be willing to give up Amazon.

On a personal level, I noted Trump's Tax Cuts and Job's Act added a 20% deduction for pass-through income. I was pleased at the time. Then, true to form, they made it only for their favorites:

Pass-Through Income

Owners of pass-through businesses—which include sole proprietorships, partnerships, and S-corporations—gained a 20% deduction for pass-through income. Certain industries, including health, law, and financial services, were excluded from the preferential rate unless taxable income is below $157,500 for single filers.


Real Estate was initially excluded, then they added that in to sweeten the pot for Trump and certain Senators:

One of the more controversial provisions of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2016 was known as the Corker Amendment. It got the name because then-Tennessee Sen. Bob Corker was vacillating about voting for the bill. The bill's authors sweetened the deal by creating a provision that allowed partners or members of limited liability corporations (LLCs) to take a 20% tax break on pass-through income.

That provision was particularly appealing to Corker. He had significant investments in rental income properties, and many of the assets in his portfolio were set up as individual LLCs. The same thing is true of many real estate portfolios, and shareholders loved the Corker Amendment as much as the senator did.


Nobody has ever been able to explain to me how passively holding rental real estate for more than $157K a year is more worthy of a tax break than proving medical care, but I guess we had a real estate con artist as president not a health care worker so there you go.
 
There is 57,808 MW of installed wind and solar in ERCOT.....4,904 of battery. During a declared state of emergency all that is currently producing 12,310 MW (21% of capacity which is actually really good considering but if a thermal plant did that you'd be testifying in Austin in a couple weeks) and that is up dramatically in the last two hours due to this being peak solar hours this time of year and precip stopping for the day over most of the footprint (solar is 8,368 of that) and that will drop to under 1000 during the evening peak hours due to loss of sunlight....then zero. The TCEQ has waived emission limits during the emergency so gas and coal plants can produce more power without environmental controls. There are plants from the 60's burning oil today..... You have to keep reserves or the whole thing collapses, so assume 7% reserve (which is a thermal number it would have to be much higher without them) and todays forecast of 76K MW at peak......you would need to install an additional 332,192 MW of renewable generation and that is based on the best solar number (there is currently 151K of total installed all resources for scale)....and that much battery at a 4:1 or better ratio to back it up if goes down.....to make it through a day that won't set winter peak records when there is some sun shining.

It ain't the grid.....it's renewables.

We have waisted almost 2 decades where innovation of new dispatchable resources could have been developed.....100's of billions of dollars....and emitted more green house gases than if there never been a single solar or wind installation.
 
There is 57,808 MW of installed wind and solar in ERCOT.....4,904 of battery. During a declared state of emergency all that is currently producing 12,310 MW (21% of capacity which is actually really good considering but if a thermal plant did that you'd be testifying in Austin in a couple weeks) and that is up dramatically in the last two hours due to this being peak solar hours this time of year and precip stopping for the day over most of the footprint (solar is 8,368 of that) and that will drop to under 1000 during the evening peak hours due to loss of sunlight....then zero. The TCEQ has waived emission limits during the emergency so gas and coal plants can produce more power without environmental controls. There are plants from the 60's burning oil today..... You have to keep reserves or the whole thing collapses, so assume 7% reserve (which is a thermal number it would have to be much higher without them) and todays forecast of 76K MW at peak......you would need to install an additional 332,192 MW of renewable generation and that is based on the best solar number (there is currently 151K of total installed all resources for scale)....and that much battery at a 4:1 or better ratio to back it up if goes down.....to make it through a day that won't set winter peak records when there is some sun shining.

It ain't the grid.....it's renewables.

We have waisted almost 2 decades where innovation of new dispatchable resources could have been developed.....100's of billions of dollars....and emitted more green house gases than if there never been a single solar or wind installation.
Speaking to Thermal Energy, have you seen this they are going to attempt in Iceland ?

World's first: Scientists aim to drill heart of volcano for unlimited power​


Link here
 
Speaking to Thermal Energy, have you seen this they are going to attempt in Iceland ?

World's first: Scientists aim to drill heart of volcano for unlimited power​


Link here
It's geo-thermal on steriods.....geo-thermal plants exist using wells now but nothing on that scale. If it can be harnessed safely it's a great idea.
 
It's geo-thermal on steriods.....geo-thermal plants exist using wells now but nothing on that scale. If it can be harnessed safely it's a great idea.
They think they can have it tapped and ready for testing by 2026. It could be a game changer if it works like expected
 
They think they can have it tapped and ready for testing by 2026. It could be a game changer if it works like expected
For those close to volcanoes.....

Geo-thermal is great in that it's "free" fuel and carbon free. It's set back is size and maintenance cost. The size issue is completely resolved with this.....don't know about the O/M cost but it has to be less than fuel. It seems like it would be extremely expensive to install but again that's a pay me now pay me later....a billion in construction vs. 400M pays back pretty quick when you don't have to spend 100'sK on gas a day. If this works it could offset a significant amount of base load carbon based generation. And for places like Iceland you could be looking at single digit cent KW's at the customer level forever.
 
I wish utilities would negotiate for and sell or lease us individual solar/wind options, or micro grid applications for housing additions. Seems like that would be more efficient and cost effective for users. Saw a photo of OKC at night and someone is wasting tons of electricity lighting up the sky. Individuals can limit their power usage, so can corporations. But corporations use more and get lower rates than residents, and truly need vast amounts of power in reserve capacity . We pay for reserve not only for ourselves but for corporations as well. It would also be nice if when you purchase a home you could finance solar/wind systems at the same time, and possibly an electric vehicle. If I owned more land I might want an additional source of income by selling extra capacity to neighbors. However, the utilities will not pay what your power is worth unless you can consistently produce 100KW with less than 5% distortion. IMO the powers that be spend most of their time and energy figuring out how to remain in power and control the game rather than striving to create a more sustainable world. Off grid systems have come along way, but you shouldn’t have to cut utilities in order to keep from paying for corporate welfare or the whims of fossil fuel producers. I constantly hear people mitch and boan about inflation, mainly about food and gasoline, but utilities are a car payment a month already. And EVERY year they demand rate increases. We are retired and on a fixed income. If we live too long, the utilities could starve us to death.
 
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progress? who needs progress? give me my horse and buggy, and lantern, and water well...but if you must go with progress, go all in, don't use anything that you already have...
 

Here you go Pokey:​

TESUP V7 NEW European Wind Turbine for Home Out Perform PV Solar Panels in 2024?!​

 
I wish utilities would negotiate for and sell or lease us individual solar/wind options, or micro grid applications for housing additions. YOU CAN DO THIS NOW NOTHING IS STOPPING YOU OTHER THAN IT IS PROBABLY A REALLY DUMB ECONOMIC MOVE AND THE BALANCING AUTHORITIES AREN'T THE ONES SELLING THE POWER SOURCES SO THEY CAN'T BE BLAMED FOR THE COST Seems like that would be more efficient and cost effective for users. Saw a photo of OKC at night and someone is wasting tons of electricity lighting up the sky. Individuals can limit their power usage, so can corporations. But corporations use more and get lower rates than residents, THESE DEALS FOR BULK LOAD ARE PAID TO PRIVATE COMPANIES NOT YOUR BALANCING AUTHORITY OR ARE NEGOTIATED WITH A UTILITY BUYING IN BULK IS A THING EVERYWHERE SAME REASON 50 ROLLS OF TOILER PAPER ARE CHEAPER AT COSTCO THAN ONE AT 7-11 SOMETIMES THEY ARE GOOD DEALS SOMETIMES THEY AREN'T THEY ARE HEDGES BASED ON LARGE CONSISTENT LOADS AND AGAIN YOU CAN DO THIS NOW BUT YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BUY A CONSISTENT AMOUNT OF POWER AROUND THE CLOCK AND POST CREDIT TO ENTER INTO AN AGREEMENT WITH A PRIVATE COMPANY THAT ASSUMES THE RISK and truly need vast amounts of power in reserve capacity . YOU HAVE TO HAVE RESERVES OR THE GRID COLLAPES - A MICRO GRID WILL TRIP WITHOUT RESERVE CAPACITY YOU HAVE TO HAVE RESERVES OR EXIST IN A WORLD WHERE LOAD/VOLTAGE/FREQUENCY NEVER CHANGE AND THAT WORLD DOESN'T EXIST IT DOESN'T EXIST ON MICRO GRIDS MUCH LESS BULK ELECTRIC SYSTEMS WITH MILLIONS OF INPUTS We pay for reserve not only for ourselves but for corporations as well. RESERVES ARE ALWAYS MAINTAINED AND REGULATED BY NERC/FERC AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL THEY ARE PAID FOR BY ALL AND WHEN THERE ARE LARGE EVENTS THEY ARE PAID ON LOAD RATIO SHARE SO THE BIGGER YOU ARE THE MORE YOU PAY It would also be nice if when you purchase a home you could finance solar/wind systems at the same time, and possibly an electric vehicle. YOU CAN DO THIS NOW IF YOU HAVE THE CREDIT - AGAIN GOOD LUCK BREAKING EVEN If I owned more land I might want an additional source of income by selling extra capacity to neighbors. GOOD LUCK BUILDING DISTRIBUTION GRADE ELECTRICAL SERVICE FOR SOMETHING AS SMALL AS YOUR NEIGHBORS AND GETTING INCOME OFF IT YOU'D HAVE TO CHARGE THEM SIGNIFICANTLY MORE THAN THEY ARE PAYING TO TO SEE THE FIRST DIME AFTER DECADES TO COVER BUILD COSTS SO YOU WOULD BE OFFERING A LESS RELIABLE PRODUCT AT A MUCH HIGHER PRICE UNLESS YOU ARE GOING TO KEEP A FULLY REDUNDANT SET OF SPARE PARTS AND BE ABLE TO MONITOR AND MAINTAIN IT 24/7 AND YOU WOULD HAVE PLANNED PERIODS OF NO ELECTRICITY WHEN HAVE TO DO SCHEDULED PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE THERE IS NO 15 MINUTE QUICK LUBE FOR GENERATORATION RESOURCES AND DISTRIBUTION EQUIPMENT - YOU COULD DO IT NOW BUT GOOD LUCK SIGNING FOLKS
YOU COULD BUY LAND A HERD OF COWS/CHICKENS/PIGS TILL YOUR LAND FOR A GRAIN CROP WITH EQUIPMENT YOU HAVE TO BUY PLANT AND MAINTAIN A GARDEN INSTALL IRRIGATION EITHER PURCHASING WATER OR DRILLING WELLS AND PUMP SYSTEMS SO YOU AREN'T STARVING IF IT DOESN'T RAIN BUY THE STUFF TO PROCESS AND STORE LARGE AMOUNTS OF FOOD SAFELY BUT IT'S GONNA TAKE A WHOLE LOT OF SAVED TRIPS TO THE GROCERY STORE TO BREAK EVEN COWS/CHICKENS/SEEDS ARE CHEAP BUT THE EQUIPMENT AND LAND ARE GONNA STING However, the utilities will not pay what your power is worth unless you can consistently produce 100KW with less than 5% distortion. ALL HOME BASED SOURCES - EVEN LIKE IF YOU HAVE A STANDBY GENERATOR LIKE A GENERAC RECIEVE THE PUBLICALLY POSTED REAL TIME PRICE AT THE PRICING NODE THEY ARE LOCATED (OR A NEGOTIATED PROGRAM RATE ONE VOLUNTARILY SIGNS UP FOR) YOU ARE GETTING THE SAME PRICE BASED ON DEMAND EVERYONE ELSE IS- YOU CAN'T BLAME SOMEONE FOR NOT WANTING TO PAY A PRICE DIFFERENT THAN EVERYONE ELSE FOR A PRODUCT YOU CANT GAURANTEE WILL BE THERE - IMO the powers that be spend most of their time and energy figuring out how to remain in power and control the game rather than striving to create a more sustainable world. Off grid systems have come along way, but you shouldn’t have to cut utilities in order to keep from paying for corporate welfare or the whims of fossil fuel producers. I constantly hear people mitch and boan about inflation, mainly about food and gasoline, but utilities are a car payment a month already. And EVERY year they demand rate increases. We are retired and on a fixed income. If we live too long, the utilities could starve us to death. YOU GET MORE FOR WHAT YOU PAY FOR WITH ELECTRICITY THAN PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING YOU BUY - MOST FOLKS CREDIT CARD BILL IS ON PAR WITH THEIR ELECTRIC BILL FOR LAST YEARS VACATION OR DISCRETIONARY PURCHASES - THE AVERAGE US ELECTRIC BILL FOR RESIDENTIAL CUSTOMERS IS $117 (THIS IS THE USAGE RATE NOT LOCAL TAXES AND THINGS) PER THE US ENERGY INFORMATION ADMINISTRAION THATS ALL SO THATS A 800 SQ FT FLAT AND 8000 SQ FT MANSIONS SO I KNOW IT VARIES BUT THE AVERAGE MONTHLY BILL IS ON PAR WITH A TRIP TO CHILI'S FOR A FAMILY OF FOUR IF MOM AND DAD HAVE A MARG AND YOU AREN'T A CHEAP TIPPER AND FOR THE SAME MONEY AS ONE CASUAL DINING MEAL YOU GET THE PRODUCT THAT CONTROLS THE COMFORT OF YOUR HOME/POWERS YOUR COMMUNICATIONS/PUMPS YOUR WATER/LIGHTS YOUR HOME - YOU GET THE PRODUCT THAT SUSTAINS YOUR WAY OF LIFE - YOU HAVE TO HAVE ELECTRICITY AND IT'S DIRT CHEAP MEDICINE AFTER INSURANCE CAN COST MORE A MONTH THAN POWER FOR A YEAR AN IPHONE 15 COSTS CLOSE TO A YEARS WORTH OF THE AVERAGE ELECTRICITY BILL - FOUR OSU FOOTBALL SEASON TICKETS IN CRAPPY SEATS COST $200 MORE THAN WHAT A YEAR OF WHAT PROVIDES YOUR QUALITY OF LIFE DOES YOU ARE GETTING MORE VALUE WITH YOUR ELECTRICITY PURCHASE THAN PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING ELSE YOU CAN BUY
 
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TRIGGERED much? I get most of what you’re selling except price. We’re total electric have had winter bills exceeding $500 in February: hardley a trip to Chilies. Have brand new windows and doors. Have new HVAC units, new well pump , hot water heater, energy star appliances, and mostly LED lighting. Moved to averaging to keep bills consistently in the $200-250 range. Called up power boys and asked why my bill had not gone down with these improvements. Quote: you won’t see much of a reduction in rates for about a year because when you average we average your bill with last years bill on the same date. WHAT? Who makes sure I’m not way ahead? To me, this is like paying invisible interest. You say I can go off averaging anytime, but there will be NO catch up payments because they’ll be no catching up because they are so far ahead and customer get zero accounting showing where we stand, not even annually. Was on SmartHours until I realized that those high cost hours often occurred at the exact same moment that industry required the most power, but if you weren’t signed up you were only paying $.13 v $.49 in the program. In effect punishing those customers who care most about the planet. Typical
Installed a Generac. Runs 5 minutes a week. 95% of the $50+ bill is fees. When it comes to utilities IMO it’s reverse Robin Hood as are SmartHours.
Thank you Donnyboy sincerely, for the well informed, if not a defensively biased account. You seem to be a true defender of the status quo, well on your way to higher paying positions within the industry.
 
TRIGGERED much? I get most of what you’re selling except price. We’re total electric have had winter bills exceeding $500 in February: hardley a trip to Chilies. Have brand new windows and doors. Have new HVAC units, new well pump , hot water heater, energy star appliances, and mostly LED lighting. Moved to averaging to keep bills consistently in the $200-250 range. Called up power boys and asked why my bill had not gone down with these improvements. Quote: you won’t see much of a reduction in rates for about a year because when you average we average your bill with last years bill on the same date. WHAT? Who makes sure I’m not way ahead? To me, this is like paying invisible interest. You say I can go off averaging anytime, but there will be NO catch up payments because they’ll be no catching up because they are so far ahead and customer get zero accounting showing where we stand, not even annually. Was on SmartHours until I realized that those high cost hours often occurred at the exact same moment that industry required the most power, but if you weren’t signed up you were only paying $.13 v $.49 in the program. In effect punishing those customers who care most about the planet. Typical
Installed a Generac. Runs 5 minutes a week. 95% of the $50+ bill is fees. When it comes to utilities IMO it’s reverse Robin Hood as are SmartHours.
Thank you Donnyboy sincerely, for the well informed, if not a defensively biased account. You seem to be a true defender of the status quo, well on your way to higher paying positions within the industry.
We are seeing an average 33% increase over the past two years in school electric bills. It’s from one side of the state to the other and all kind of providers. Electricity costs are going up.
 
TRIGGERED much? I get most of what you’re selling except price. We’re total electric have had winter bills exceeding $500 in February: hardley a trip to Chilies. Have brand new windows and doors. Have new HVAC units, new well pump , hot water heater, energy star appliances, and mostly LED lighting. Moved to averaging to keep bills consistently in the $200-250 range. Called up power boys and asked why my bill had not gone down with these improvements. Quote: you won’t see much of a reduction in rates for about a year because when you average we average your bill with last years bill on the same date. WHAT? Who makes sure I’m not way ahead? To me, this is like paying invisible interest. You say I can go off averaging anytime, but there will be NO catch up payments because they’ll be no catching up because they are so far ahead and customer get zero accounting showing where we stand, not even annually. Was on SmartHours until I realized that those high cost hours often occurred at the exact same moment that industry required the most power, but if you weren’t signed up you were only paying $.13 v $.49 in the program. In effect punishing those customers who care most about the planet. Typical
Installed a Generac. Runs 5 minutes a week. 95% of the $50+ bill is fees. When it comes to utilities IMO it’s reverse Robin Hood as are SmartHours.
Thank you Donnyboy sincerely, for the well informed, if not a defensively biased account. You seem to be a true defender of the status quo, well on your way to higher paying positions within the industry.
So you signed up for a program you don't like and now you are blaming the entire sector......and if you moved to averaging and it dropped from $500 to 250 that means one bill was $500 and a whole bunch were 100 or less or one month was FREE. This is more of a math than commodity problem. Of course high cost hours everyone is using more power.....do you want hospitals, factories, large office buildings, retailers to all close? Do you want them to turn off their HVAC for hours, you don't. And residential use varries far more than industrial....yeah the AC/heat in the admin building is working harder just like your house but the 5MW's of pumps/chillers/etc that runs 24 hours a day is doing the exact same thing.....the machine that makes widgets indoors uses the same on a nice day as it does hot/cold. You mention $0.13/KW....in the 80's my family paid $0.11/kw in rural OK on a co-op that had the take rights to a hydro dam so the greedy ol status quo must be adaping better than anyone else cause the housing cost is double, education closer to 5 times, transportation has more than doubled.....

I chopped up your post because it was wholly inaccurate. The problems you are describing are more due to choice than sector. There are places where people are forced into a service provider, the vast majority have choices on where they get and how they pay for power. You fall in that category since you mention two different plans and generator program you have chosen poorly. And again you have the option to disconnect and do your own thing but if $500 is an issue, and I don't mean that flippantly like "oh you don't have money" I mean if that price point bothers you then you are in for a massive awakening when you try to procure a means to power your needs 24/7/365.....75K is a $500 bill per month for 12 years.....
 
We are seeing an average 33% increase over the past two years in school electric bills. It’s from one side of the state to the other and all kind of providers. Electricity costs are going up.
Biggest jump in electricity prices in decades is since Uri.....Oklahoma is in a worse boat because gas ran like crazy during the event. There were 4 digit gas indices during Uri in Ok....that is getting recouped and that is the main component in Ok. The other reason for it everywhere is volatility....price blow outs are more common now than they have ever been....you never had blow outs on mild days unless a major generation or transmission event occurred which are rare....spring/fall pretty day pops are routine now. In ERCOT a price pop that got everyone antsy in their trading pantsies was $500. It's in the thousands now. To put that in perspective everything points to it being a ho-hum day and power should average $30 MW/h for the 16 hour peak part of the day......so you sell 500MW/h @ $35 you are gonna make 40 grand it's a good day! Somebody got in a bind and needed power and you made money and didn't break them doing it......now on the same mild day price goes to $1000 for two 15 minute pricing intervals because solar ramped out more quickly than anticipated at sundown or the wind changed or a combo of both.....2 intervals at $1000 adds $30 to the 16 hour peak average for the for day. So because an unpredictable weather hiccup you lose $200K. Risk is through the roof....risk has costs. The reason for that is you used to have baseload generators that could under market rules price the very end of their capacity at higher rates and it was a game of chicken to see who priced them right to get to get the high prices.....get too greedy get left out so it self managed.....now those generators are offline as they have been pushed out by renewables and instead of having stable gen tied to a fuel index you have small fast response resources that can submit....and justify verifiably, that's important they can't just say I want 1M for this MW they have to submit verifiable costs....that respond when the wind suddenly drops or changes direction. These units are deployed to respond rapidly and they have start up costs tied to them. Think of it like paying by use for a car....a car that starts and stops a bunch doesn't last as long as one that sets the cruise at 60 and rarely even has to shift. The parts and maintenance on these turbines is specialized and expensive....have a Acme Q36 Space Modulator you pretty much have to go to Acme for parts and service and good luck insuring one without original manufacturing maintenance agreements.....so every time you hit the button it's say 10K....well that 10K has to be priced into the number of MW's you can make in 15 minutes. So if you have a 25MW turbine and before price changes you can transmit 10MW/Hrs on average from a dead stop to the grid the price starts at $1000/MW before you pay for anything else. And you have to price it off of one interval because price can go from $50 to 1000 back to 100 in that time frame....you hit start and it fired so you are paying the 10K start whether the market supports you for 5 hours or 15 minutes. Say you are buying blocks of power to supply bundles of retail load.....you have to price in the pops or you lose your butt. So the people you pay your bill to used to run analytics and say in the next 12 months power should average X with Y number of pricing intervals being $500......now it's power is gonna average X and I can tie to gas and hedge to ease commodity risk but I have to factor in 5Y intervals of volatility at $1000 due non dispatchable resources......and now the credit costs for this deal have increased.....so the costs are way up. Or you sell a renewable product at the retail level and forecast changed over night and you aren't going to be producing....you now have to buy in a sellers spot market to cover so you have to price that premium into the plan and there are less places to buy so......

And all that doesn't factor into the complete crashing of capacity markets for ISO's that have them.....capacity markets were the steady cash flow for generators....renewables with negative costs have crushed those markets so now that income has to be priced into MW/h cost to produce. Renewable resources can bid their entire capacity into auctions and produce only a fraction of the time without penalty because markets are incentivizing renewable generation and as they say "we can't control the weather"......thermal plants have to be able to produce their submitted capacity values at all times (except approved outage times) or face big penalties....like the bankrupt you kind. The penalties are ramped up during scarcity or the smart hours.

The bill is coming for all this stuff that will never work on a large scale.
 
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