Wind & solar now producing more American electricity than coal for the first time

[HacklemanPoke]

How could you possibly know what I do and don't remember? Take away the tax incentives for both and see which one comes to a screeching halt. Again, in my county the wind farms have yet to pay one single penny in tax out of their pocket.

We already see which comes to a screeching halt in terms of new production when pricing becomes unsustainable. But I’ve never once seen you complain about the ridiculously low royalty rates O&G companies enjoy. Or their lease terms. How come you don’t complain about the millions and billions of $ that have subsidized O&G industry over decades in tax policy, leasing terms, ROW payments and strategic petroleum reserve management not to mention foreign policy decisions. You are out of your depth here. Just admit it and move on to the next disgusting meme you can copy and paste. No one cares that you were on a school board just like no one cares that I’m on a university foundation board and sees the complete devastation the OK government has heaped upon higher Ed.

O&G are finite resources that require complex financial decisions and years of research and planning. We are at an inflection point where we need to be developing alternative solutions and giving them the same opportunities (and if that means subsidies then so be it) that the Oil and Gas industry has enjoyed for dang near a 1/2 century. Can you imagine the utter chaos and disruption each American’s life would experience if the govt stopped all subsidies for all industries? It would make the Great Depression look small. Prices at the pump would most certainly double not to mention what would happen to utility rates. The economy wouldn’t grind to a halt it would immediately stop and would take years to restore.

I see enough of your posts and interactions to know that your posts are often intellectually dishonest and offensive. Like others have said or implied, “Pigeon pecking at a keyboard.”

 

[GOGETUMPOKE]

We already see which comes to a screeching halt in terms of new production when pricing becomes unsustainable. But I’ve never once seen you complain about the ridiculously low royalty rates O&G companies enjoy. Or their lease terms. How come you don’t complain about the millions and billions of $ that have subsidized O&G industry over decades in tax policy, leasing terms, ROW payments and strategic petroleum reserve management not to mention foreign policy decisions. You are out of your depth here. Just admit it and move on to the next disgusting meme you can copy and paste. No one cares that you were on a school board just like no one cares that I’m on a university foundation board and sees the complete devastation the OK government has heaped upon higher Ed.

O&G are finite resources that require complex financial decisions and years of research and planning. We are at an inflection point where we need to be developing alternative solutions and giving them the same opportunities (and if that means subsidies then so be it) that the Oil and Gas industry has enjoyed for dang near a 1/2 century. Can you imagine the utter chaos and disruption each American’s life would experience if the govt stopped all subsidies for all industries? It would make the Great Depression look small. Prices at the pump would most certainly double not to mention what would happen to utility rates. The economy wouldn’t grind to a halt it would immediately stop and would take years to restore.

I see enough of your posts and interactions to know that your posts are often intellectually dishonest and offensive. Like others have said or implied, “Pigeon pecking at a keyboard.”

You’re all over the place. You piss and moan about oil and gas subsidies and the devastation that it reeks on higher ed but your cool with subsidies to wind and solar at 8 times the rate? The reason you don’t see me complain about O&G subsidies is because I understand economics and agriculture and what it takes to run a military and actually produce things. I just spent two weeks overseas where gas is $7/gal for goodness sake. You have no problem bitching about the unfairness of O&G yet not one peep about the horrible practices of the wind farm companies and their treatment of landowners while on the government teat at an unprecedented rate all while electricity becomes more expensive every year? Here’s your obligatory meme:

 

[HacklemanPoke]

You’re all over the place. You piss and moan about oil and gas subsidies and the devastation that it reeks on higher ed but your cool with subsidies to wind and solar at 8 times the rate? The reason you don’t see me complain about O&G subsidies is because I understand economics and agriculture and what it takes to run a military and actually produce things. I just spent two weeks overseas where gas is $7/gal for goodness sake. You have no problem bitching about the unfairness of O&G yet not one peep about the horrible practices of the wind farm companies and their treatment of landowners while on the government teat at an unprecedented rate all while electricity becomes more expensive every year? Here’s your obligatory meme:

View attachment 1144

Glad you didn’t disappoint. Let me explain it simpler. Not once do I piss and moan about O&G subsidies. I simply pointed out that they have had the same advantages that wind and solar are getting and they are still getting them. It’s just not happening in the light of day. You are just too shallow to see it. O&G has its place but so do wind and solar and geothermal and nuclear. Things always get more expensive. Why wouldn’t we invest now (especially the last 15 yrs when money was cheap) in trying to get ahead of the curve. If we don’t get to cheap energy we lose our standing. It’s got to be all of the above plus.

And why would I complain about those very advantages? I never blamed O&G for higher Ed problems. I blamed the OK govt. I spent decades proudly working in the O&G industry and am now a proud mineral owner and energy coop participant. It provided me the financial security to invest where and how I want, to retire way early and spend time w my family when my kids were in college and to give to institutions to hopefully make a small difference. I tried to tell you you were out of your depth but you fluffed your chest, broke out the key board and pecked away.

 

[CowboyJD]

Glad you didn’t disappoint. Let me explain it simpler. Not once do I piss and moan about O&G subsidies. I simply pointed out that they have had the same advantages that wind and solar are getting and they are still getting them. It’s just not happening in the light of day. You are just too shallow to see it. O&G has its place but so do wind and solar and geothermal and nuclear. Things always get more expensive. Why wouldn’t we invest now (especially the last 15 yrs when money was cheap) in trying to get ahead of the curve. If we don’t get to cheap energy we lose our standing. It’s got to be all of the above plus.

And why would I complain about those very advantages? I never blamed O&G for higher Ed problems. I blamed the OK govt. I spent decades proudly working in the O&G industry and am now a proud mineral owner and energy coop participant. It provided me the financial security to invest where and how I want, to retire way early and spend time w my family when my kids were in college and to give to institutions to hopefully make a small difference. I tried to tell you you were out of your depth but you fluffed your chest, broke out the key board and pecked away.

“I’m no expert in the field, but here is my opinion that I’ve pulled out of my butt….that I will defend to the death without any facts, experience, or actual knowledge against an actual expert in the field.”

It’s what he does….

It’s who he is.

 

[GOGETUMPOKE]

Glad you didn’t disappoint. Let me explain it simpler. Not once do I piss and moan about O&G subsidies. I simply pointed out that they have had the same advantages that wind and solar are getting and they are still getting them. It’s just not happening in the light of day. You are just too shallow to see it. O&G has its place but so do wind and solar and geothermal and nuclear. Things always get more expensive. Why wouldn’t we invest now (especially the last 15 yrs when money was cheap) in trying to get ahead of the curve. If we don’t get to cheap energy we lose our standing. It’s got to be all of the above plus.

And why would I complain about those very advantages? I never blamed O&G for higher Ed problems. I blamed the OK govt. I spent decades proudly working in the O&G industry and am now a proud mineral owner and energy coop participant. It provided me the financial security to invest where and how I want, to retire way early and spend time w my family when my kids were in college and to give to institutions to hopefully make a small difference. I tried to tell you you were out of your depth but you fluffed your chest, broke out the key board and pecked away.

Lol. You constantly trot out the O&G subsidies every time one of these discussions comes up. And the advantages aren’t even close to what wind and solar are getting. Are you seriously trying to convince us that the things happening in O&G “not in the light of day” aren’t happening in wind and solar? Sounds like you’re rich and important enough to not care about the opinions of some peasants on a message board that are so obviously beneath you so why the hate? Shouldn’t you be polishing the silver, jumping in the sports car, and heading to a higher ed meeting?

 

[GOGETUMPOKE]

“I’m no expert in the field, but here is my opinion that I’ve pulled out of my butt….that I will defend to the death without any facts, experience, or actual knowledge against an actual expert in the field.”

It’s what he does….

It’s who he is.

Which opinion did I pull out of my butt? Be specific.

 

[HacklemanPoke]

Lol. You constantly trot out the O&G subsidies every time one of these discussions comes up. And the advantages aren’t even close to what wind and solar are getting. Are you seriously trying to convince us that the things happening in O&G “not in the light of day” aren’t happening in wind and solar? Sounds like you’re rich and important enough to not care about the opinions of some peasants on a message board that are so obviously beneath you so why the hate? Shouldn’t you be polishing the silver, jumping in the sports car, and heading to a higher ed meeting?

You’re right I trot them out. Not to complain about them but to show the sheer hypocrisy when someone starts in on wind and solar.

O&G companies are constantly taking new leases. Fed. State and private. I’ve reviewed & negotiated 100’s of leases. Until recently the feds were continuing to take 1/8th RY, below private market bonus payments and ROW payments. Private RY depending on play can receive up to 1/4 RY and unless they are being taken advantage of never takes less than 3/16ths. Do the math on that. By taking less than market, the feds are directly subsidizing O&G and you can’t even begin to see what they give up in ROW negotiations for infrastructure and pipelines. And we haven’t even touched tax issues. I don’t think wind and solar will ever see anything like a tight sands credit. But I’m sure there are credits in wind and solar that O&G can’t/won’t see.

What about every time any administration,D or R, does something w the SPR? Sure the consumer might benefit but who do you think benefits the most?

What does your money manager tell you about a diversified portfolio? Same as energy supply. We need to diversify bc in the next 50-100 yrs energy costs are going to explode. We have to diversify source. We have to build new more efficient plants (this includes refineries like the one going in Cushing). We have to build new liquification facilities. The grid will have to most likely be completely replaced. Have you even looked at how old many our Oil & NG pipelines are? It is mind blowing that leaders from both sides can’t see the domestic and global problems that the US will see in the next 25-50 yrs bc we have no leadership. That influences people like you to bash ideas you hear about on Fox or wherever you get your memes and make this a partisan issue.

And I can’t help if you mistake my pointing out as complaining. Must be something in your personal life that is occurring where you feel inadequate.

 

[CowboyJD]

Which opinion did I pull out of my butt? Be specific.

Every see?

He is who he is.

He can’t help himself.

Sad, really.

 

[GOGETUMPOKE]

Every see?

He is who he is.

He can’t help himself.

Sad, really.

lol. You state that I am pulling opinions out of my butt. I ask which opinions specifically did I pull out of my butt (because, as everyone on here knows … you are all mouth) and this is what you come up with? I know, I know…

It’s who you are.

You can’t help yourself.

Truly sad.

And for the record: Every see??

Sober up.

 

[CowboyJD]

lol. You state that I am pulling opinions out of my butt. I ask which opinions specifically did I pull out of my butt (because, as everyone on here knows … you are all mouth) and this is what you come up with? I know, I know…

It’s who you are.

You can’t help yourself.

Truly sad.

And for the record: Every see??

Sober up.

I’ve learned it does no good to engage with you in good faith expecting the same from you. That it enevitably leads to this kind of behavior. You’re not here to engage in good faith, reasoned discussion.

I’m simply pointing out to others on this board your behavior.

Don’t like it?

Too bad. There’s nothing you can do about it.

You’re all over the place. You piss and moan about oil and gas subsidies and the devastation that it reeks on higher ed but your cool with subsidies to wind and solar at 8 times the rate? The reason you don’t see me complain about O&G subsidies is because I understand economics and agriculture and what it takes to run a military and actually produce things. I just spent two weeks overseas where gas is $7/gal for goodness sake. You have no problem bitching about the unfairness of O&G yet not one peep about the horrible practices of the wind farm companies and their treatment of landowners while on the government teat at an unprecedented rate all while electricity becomes more expensive every year? Here’s your obligatory meme:

View attachment 1144

For the record:

It’s “wreaks”….not “reeks”.

Sober up.

 

[GOGETUMPOKE]

You’re right I trot them out. Not to complain about them but to show the sheer hypocrisy when someone starts in on wind and solar.

O&G companies are constantly taking new leases. Fed. State and private. I’ve reviewed & negotiated 100’s of leases. Until recently the feds were continuing to take 1/8th RY, below private market bonus payments and ROW payments. Private RY depending on play can receive up to 1/4 RY and unless they are being taken advantage of never takes less than 3/16ths. Do the math on that. By taking less than market, the feds are directly subsidizing O&G and you can’t even begin to see what they give up in ROW negotiations for infrastructure and pipelines. And we haven’t even touched tax issues. I don’t think wind and solar will ever see anything like a tight sands credit. But I’m sure there are credits in wind and solar that O&G can’t/won’t see.

What about every time any administration,D or R, does something w the SPR? Sure the consumer might benefit but who do you think benefits the most?

What does your money manager tell you about a diversified portfolio? Same as energy supply. We need to diversify bc in the next 50-100 yrs energy costs are going to explode. We have to diversify source. We have to build new more efficient plants (this includes refineries like the one going in Cushing). We have to build new liquification facilities. The grid will have to most likely be completely replaced. Have you even looked at how old many our Oil & NG pipelines are? It is mind blowing that leaders from both sides can’t see the domestic and global problems that the US will see in the next 25-50 yrs bc we have no leadership. That influences people like you to bash ideas you hear about on Fox or wherever you get your memes and make this a partisan issue.

And I can’t help if you mistake my pointing out as complaining. Must be something in your personal life that is occurring where you feel inadequate.

Nobody is disagreeing with any of that Mr. Rockefeller but thanks for the dissertation. Andy simply stated that they don’t pay taxes and I confirmed that indeed they don’t. Then you come rolling in with the tax breaks for the O&G industry that made you rich enough to retire early and be a philanthropist. Does wind and solar receive tax breaks at a much higher rate than O&G? Yes. Is it currently an inefficient and unreliable source of energy? Yes. Will it get better? Probably. Sorry to ruin your day Governor.

 

[HacklemanPoke]

Which opinion did I pull out of my butt? Be specific.

Pick 1. Any 1.

Nobody is disagreeing with any of that Mr. Rockefeller but thanks for the dissertation. Andy simply stated that they don’t pay taxes and I confirmed that indeed they don’t. Then you come rolling in with the tax breaks for the O&G industry that made you rich enough to retire early and be a philanthropist. Does wind and solar receive tax breaks at a much higher rate than O&G? Yes. Is it currently an inefficient and unreliable source of energy? Yes. Will it get better? Probably. Sorry to ruin your day Governor.

Hey snowflake. You didn’t ruin my day. It’s been fantastic. Spent the morning mowing and then fixed lunch and dinner for my wife. Now I’m catching a little Gold Rush on TV.

Nice of you to change the discussion. Yes you were insinuating that wind and solar were bad. We weren’t only discussing tax issues we were talking about subsidies which can take many forms and you suggested that wind and solar would cease to exist without them as if they were inferior economically to O&G. That is an intellectually dishonest argument bc O&G is a mature industry and one that has benefited and continues to benefit from subsidies. You cannot compare them bc they are at different stages in their life cycle. Would O&G be as robust as it is today without the many federal and state breaks it has received going on over 50 years?

And I only brought up my situation bc you’re the one person on this board who continually reminds us you were on a school board or on a rotary committee or chamber of commerce or some other notable institution. It’s insufferable and I wanted to make the point that there are many on this board who are your equal in many ways but true to form you turned it into a pissing contest and have now brought it up more than I have. Says all I need to know about how you measure life and how you approach people. Keep on pecking.

 

[GOGETUMPOKE]

I’ve learned it does no good to engage with you in good faith expecting the same from you. That it enevitably leads to this kind of behavior. You’re not here to engage in good faith, reasoned discussion.

I’m simply pointing out to others on this board your behavior.

Don’t like it?

Too bad. There’s nothing you can do about it.

For the record:

It’s “wreaks”….not “reeks”.

Sober up.

Your first post on this thread:

I’m no expert in the field, but here is my opinion that I’ve pulled out of my butt….that I will defend to the death without any facts, experience, or actual knowledge against an actual expert in the field.”

It’s what he does….

It’s who he is.

That’s quite an effort to engage me in good faith and reasoned discussion counselor. Thanks for coming down off your perch to crap on another thread without adding one single thing of substance.

 

[GOGETUMPOKE]

Pick 1. Any 1.

Hey snowflake. You didn’t ruin my day. It’s been fantastic. Spent the morning mowing and then fixed lunch and dinner for my wife. Now I’m catching a little Gold Rush on TV.

Nice of you to change the discussion. Yes you were insinuating that wind and solar were bad. We weren’t only discussing tax issues we were talking about subsidies which can take many forms and you suggested that wind and solar would cease to exist without them as if they were inferior economically to O&G. That is an intellectually dishonest argument bc O&G is a mature industry and one that has benefited and continues to benefit from subsidies. You cannot compare them bc they are at different stages in their life cycle. Would O&G be as robust as it is today without the many federal and state breaks it has received going on over 50 years?

And I only brought up my situation bc you’re the one person on this board who continually reminds us you were on a school board or on a rotary committee or chamber of commerce or some other notable institution. It’s insufferable and I wanted to make the point that there are many on this board who are your equal in many ways but true to form you turned it into a pissing contest and have now brought it up more than I have. Says all I need to know about how you measure life and how you approach people. Keep on pecking.

I have literally never mentioned being on a Rotary committee or chamber of commerce and I only mentioned the school board because that’s where the tax issues with O&G and wind came in. Now you’re just making stuff up. Thanks for the update on your day. The rest of us appreciate a small glimpse into the lives of you 1%ers now and again.

 

[Polds4OSU]

Looks like the largest known lithium deposits in the world have been found in the Oregon/Nevada border

New evidence suggests McDermitt Caldera may be among the largest known lithium reserves in the world​

New evidence suggests McDermitt Caldera may be among the largest known lithium reserves in the world

A trio of volcanologists and geologists from Lithium Americas Corporation, GNS Science, and Oregon State University reports evidence that the McDermitt Caldera, on the Nevada/Oregon, border, may host some of the largest known deposits of lithium on Earth. In their project, reported in the...

phys.org

 

[GOGETUMPOKE]

Opinion | The Coming Green Energy Bailout

Renewable power operators already want rate increases for their subsidized projects.

www.wsj.com

According to a report late last month by the New York State Energy Research and Development Authority (Nyserda), large offshore wind developers are asking for an average 48% price adjustment in their contracts to cover rising costs. The Alliance for Clean Energy NY is also requesting an average 64% price increase on 86 solar and wind projects.

The IRA includes federal tax credits that can offset 50% of a project’s costs. But renewable developers say their costs are increasing faster than inflation and that the projects will “not be economically viable and would be unable to proceed to construction and operation under their existing pricing,” says Nyserda.

 

[Polds4OSU]

Opinion | The Coming Green Energy Bailout

Renewable power operators already want rate increases for their subsidized projects.

www.wsj.com

According to a report late last month by the New York State Energy Research and Development Authority (Nyserda), large offshore wind developers are asking for an average 48% price adjustment in their contracts to cover rising costs. The Alliance for Clean Energy NY is also requesting an average 64% price increase on 86 solar and wind projects.

The IRA includes federal tax credits that can offset 50% of a project’s costs. But renewable developers say their costs are increasing faster than inflation and that the projects will “not be economically viable and would be unable to proceed to construction and operation under their existing pricing,” says Nyserda.

Cost is a trend that is changing slowly, but consistently. I started this thread with the idea that Production from Wind/Solar was now outpacing Coal Output in the US..which 10 years ago would have been a laughable thing to say.


The Response to that was "Well its still more expensive' True it is...but this is yet just a matter of time before that "Its too expensive" argument goes the same way as "We will never produce the same amount"

This is a thread about trends over time and Renewables have been confronting, overcoming and rewriting the books on every obstacle that traditionalist fossil fuel fans have thrown at it so far.

And if you watch closely ..the "Its too expensive" argument is about to be overtaken in the next couple of years.






I was not really sure up until the last 2-3 years if Wind/Solar would ever have enough opportunity, Legit capability or enough belief that it would even be seen as a competitor to fossil fuels. It keeps proving me and LOTS more people wrong on a consistent bases year after year

 

[andylicious]

Cost is a trend that is changing slowly, but consistently. I started this thread with the idea that Production from Wind/Solar was now outpacing Coal Output in the US..which 10 years ago would have been a laughable thing to say.


The Response to that was "Well its still more expensive' True it is...but this is yet just a matter of time before that "Its too expensive" argument goes the same way as "We will never produce the same amount"

This is a thread about trends over time and Renewables have been confronting, overcoming and rewriting the books on every obstacle that traditionalist fossil fuel fans have thrown at it so far.

And if you watch closely ..the "Its too expensive" argument is about to be overtaken in the next couple of years.

View attachment 1270

View attachment 1272


I was not really sure up until the last 2-3 years if Wind/Solar would ever have enough opportunity, Legit capability or enough belief that it would even be seen as a competitor to fossil fuels. It keeps proving me and LOTS more people wrong on a consistent bases year after year

If wind and solar are making a huge difference why is electricity so much more expensive

 

[Polds4OSU]

If wind and solar are making a huge difference why is electricity so much more expensive

If this is TLDR....at least know this Globally crude oil prices have increased by 350 percent from April 2020 to April 2022—the largest increase for any equivalent two-year period since the 1970s

It is a Global Problem, not just something in the US. AND it is a situation on pricing and price fluctuation not seen since the 1970's.
Please remember Trump, Reagan, Obama, Biden, FDR, Carter etc etc etc, NONE of them have ever had ANY control over global Energy prices or any control over any domestic gas/energy prices America has always been exposed to Global Energy markets and pricing.


The Russian invasion of Ukraine and COVID-19 has disrupted global energy markets, generating the biggest surge in crude-oil prices since the 1970s. The consequences for global growth will be significant: higher energy prices alone are likely to reduce global output by nearly 1 percent by the end of 2023, our recent analysis suggests.

Energy prices have spiked to levels not seen in decades
The World Bank’s energy price index increased by 26.3 percent between January and April 2022, on top of a 50 percent increase between January 2020 and December 2021. This surge reflects sharp increases in coal, oil, and natural gas prices. In nominal terms, crude oil prices have increased by 350 percent from April 2020 to April 2022—the largest increase for any equivalent two-year period since the 1970s . Meanwhile, coal and gas prices have all reached historic highs in nominal terms. In real terms, however, only European natural gas prices have reached all-time highs and remain substantially above their previous peak in 2008. Coal prices are close to their 2008 peak, while oil prices remain some way below.

The price shock won’t subside anytime soon​

Energy prices are now expected to increase by 50 percent on average in 2022. Coal prices, natural gas prices and crude oil prices are projected to increase in 2022 by 81 percent, 74 percent (average of the European, Japan, and U.S. benchmarks), and 42 percent, respectively. Moreover, energy prices are expected to remain higher for longer. Relative to January 2022 projections, the prices of energy commodities are now expected to be 46 percent higher on average in 2023.

A threat to growth and inflation​

Energy price shocks affect economic activity and inflation through a variety of channels—with direct as well as indirect effects on energy-importing and -exporting economies . The indirect effects can occur through trade and other commodity markets, through monetary and fiscal policy responses, and through investment uncertainty. Through these channels, energy prices can also have immediate repercussions—even absent discretionary policy responses—on fiscal and external balances.

By the end of 2023, global output could be 0.8 percent lower​

The combined increase in oil, natural gas and coal prices could reduce global growth by 0.5 percentage points in 2022 and a further 0.3 percentage point in 2023, lowering global output by a cumulative 0.8 percent by 2023. Advanced economies would experience a cumulative reduction in output of 0.9 percent by 2023 compared to a 0.6 percent output reduction in oil-importing Emerging Markets and Developing Economies.

Policy can tackle the supply-demand imbalance​

Policy makers need to prioritize policies that encourage greater energy efficiency and accelerate the transition towards low-carbon energy sources . The resulting improvement in the supply-demand balance for energy can help reduce the risk of stagflation and overcome headwinds to growth. In the near-term, to cushion the adverse effects of households, temporary targeted support to vulnerable groups can be prioritized over energy subsidies that could delay the transition to a zero-carbon economy.

 

[Donnyboy]

If wind and solar are making a huge difference why is electricity so much more expensive

Renewable penetration into markets making thermal unsustainable on "normal" market days. Thermal is required for a multitude of reasons but capacity factors are dropping meaning you have to price in the down time to remain solvent. Additionally load supplying entities have to price in excursions due to non-dispatchable renewables not operating to schedule. To go all renewable or all carbon capture fossil your at home bill will need to triple.