US continues to go backward...

I knew it was going on but had no idea that Republican attacks upon public schools were so costly. Once again, I believe their legislative goal is to try to make public schools look so unfit for children that their parents will switch them to private schools, hopefully government subsidized.

 
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I had no idea that Republican attacks upon public schools were so costly. Once again, I believe their legislative goal is to try to make public schools look so unfit for children that their parents will switch them to private schools, hopefully government subsidized.

Completely agree.

Waste of all of our tax money. It raises taxes or causes funding shortfalls for school districts. So either you pay for it or your kids do.
 
I had no idea that Republican attacks upon public schools were so costly. Once again, I believe their legislative goal is to try to make public schools look so unfit for children that their parents will switch them to private schools, hopefully government subsidized.

According to the 2023 report from the Education Policy Innovation Collaborative at Michigan State University, nearly 30% of third-graders do not know how to read at the appropriate grade level, even as the state creates new guidelines to foster literacy.


Overall, just 37% of 12th-graders reached or exceeded the academic preparedness benchmarks for both math and reading that would qualify them for entry-level college courses – a figure unchanged since 2015.


According to the National Postsecondary Student Aid Study, roughly one in three college students take remedial coursework before progressing toward credit-bearing courses, a number that increases to nearly 40 percent for students in two-year public programs.

 
According to the 2023 report from the Education Policy Innovation Collaborative at Michigan State University, nearly 30% of third-graders do not know how to read at the appropriate grade level, even as the state creates new guidelines to foster literacy.


Overall, just 37% of 12th-graders reached or exceeded the academic preparedness benchmarks for both math and reading that would qualify them for entry-level college courses – a figure unchanged since 2015.


According to the National Postsecondary Student Aid Study, roughly one in three college students take remedial coursework before progressing toward credit-bearing courses, a number that increases to nearly 40 percent for students in two-year public programs.


If you're implying that private schools are better, it's hard to make a fair comparison between the two, since private schools have the right to reject applicants they don't think would be good students as well as quickly kick out students who smart off too much or otherwise disrupt the learning process.

Meanwhile, I wonder if private schools are also finding it difficult to find well-qualified teachers. With private schools able to weed out bad student applicants, maybe that would make them more attractive to certified teachers.
 
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If you're implying that private schools are better, it's hard to make a fair comparison between the two, since private schools have the right to reject applicants they don't think would be good students as well as quickly kick out students who smart off too much or otherwise disrupt the learning process.

Meanwhile, I wonder if private schools are also finding it difficult to find well-qualified teachers. With private schools able to weed out bad student applicants, maybe that would make them more attractive to certified teachers.
Comparing public schools to private schools is an apples to oranges comparison, so I'm not implying any such thing. What I'm saying is that public schools are failing. Looking at what is going on in public schools right now it is easy to see why parents want a choice.
 
Comparing public schools to private schools is an apples to oranges comparison, so I'm not implying any such thing. What I'm saying is that public schools are failing. Looking at what is going on in public schools right now it is easy to see why parents want a choice.
What is the reason public schools are failing?
 
What is the reason public schools are failing?

Are all public schools failing or just some/many? Is this dependent on the area where the schools are-urban vs suburban vs rural and state? How do things like funding and teacher compensation affect performance? Heck, are we even using the correct metrics to evaluate performance?

Not asking you, just asking in general.

On a personal note I'd say the public school system in the rural area where I live is superior to what I grew up with in Oklahoma. The biggest obvious differences I can see are teacher pay and consolidation. My current county has double the population of my home county and one (soon to be two) less public high schools. That's not counting two Oklahoma school districts that only go to 8th grade. It's a lot easier to justify funding and support for graduating classes of 250 vs 10.
 
Seems to me that a false dichotomy is being promoted here. You say that public schools are failing. I’d say the report cards on education ONLY apply to public schools. Let’s look at athletics as an example. Private schools are allowed to recruit players from across the state. Have you noticed the number of championships accumulated by private schools? They have to play in the class above their student numbers. Maybe two classes above would make things fair, but I’m not holding my breath.
Public schools have been underfunded for years on end. A rabid minority seems to only care about giving tax breaks to private school parents by stealing monies from the public schools.
Special education students are regularly rejected by private schools. If a child is deemed severely disabled, that child must be cared for by public schools from birth to the age of twenty one. My school district was sued and lost. So they pay for full time care and “education” in another state Kansas, and must pay for transportation and lodging for parent weekly. We have infants in public schools. The cost for those few students is exorbitant and take monies out of the common classroom. Private schools spend ZERO.
Our Oklahoma Constitution requires that not one dime of public money shall be spent on religious entities. NOT ONE DIME.
Yet Ryan Walters desires to rob from the public to promote his personal religious choice on all people in the state. Now the dirtbag is wanting to spend $3,000,000 for Trump Bibles 🤮 The Gideons would probably supply nonTrumpp Bibles for free. But he wants to spend tax payer money on his effort to promote a state religion, and Donald Trump personally . It’s unconstitutional but makes no difference to him, he’d rather spend millions defending his clearly unconstitutional wet dream just to get attention from national politics. He’s a horrible hypocrite if he can’t see that promoting one religion over another is a dangerous game that public schools shouldn’t have to contend with, then he hasn’t read our state’s Constitution.
We used to rent out our gymnasium to civic entities, Boy Scouts, and a few others. Then one day the Nazis wanted to rent our gym for a rally. The entire district now rents to absolutely no one.
This Ryan Walters crap is just the latest assault on public schools and faculty. Republican Governor Frank Keating said “only one in ten teachers is deserving of a raise, the rest are just a bunch of slugs”.
Ninety percent undeserving of a raise in a state whose priorities place us continually at 48-50th in the nation for funding.
Back in the early eighties the fire and police wanted to form their own retirement system but they didn’t have the money. So the state took $19,000,000 from the teacher’s retirement system with the promise to pay it back with interest. When the debt owed reached $30,000,000 the state just said tough, we’re not paying back anything. Fire and Police can retire after 20 years. Public School personnel now have to go over 35 !!
Henry Belmon was the only decent Republican Governor and passed 1017. I know first hand marching around the Capitol and picking up every scrap of trash so the media wouldn’t be able to say how much money was wasted cleaning up after teachers. The Capitol grounds were cleaner after we left than they were before.
In my experience, private,religious, and home schooled kids are only marginally prepared for the real world. They have been sheltered and spoiled most of their lives IMO . Home schooled kids in particular seem to have more trouble with math and science, not to mention diminished social skills. Small wonder since parents aren’t specialists in every subject.
Lastly, public school personnel have unions to negotiate for them. Republicans hate teacher’s unions more than any other. Apparently, they, like Frank Keating truly believe that only 10% deserve a raise, and they want to hand select the toadies that might receive them. Could be spouses or just best friends, could be only those that go to their church, doesn’t matter to them that fewer and fewer students see teaching as a career. Guess they’re waiting for AI replacements to rule the day. Or they think it’s a NIL situation where a few make millions and the lineman are paid chump change. My 2 cents.
 
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Are all public schools failing or just some/many? Is this dependent on the area where the schools are-urban vs suburban vs rural and state? How do things like funding and teacher compensation affect performance? Heck, are we even using the correct metrics to evaluate performance?

Not asking you, just asking in general.

On a personal note I'd say the public school system in the rural area where I live is superior to what I grew up with in Oklahoma. The biggest obvious differences I can see are teacher pay and consolidation. My current county has double the population of my home county and one (soon to be two) less public high schools. That's not counting two Oklahoma school districts that only go to 8th grade. It's a lot easier to justify funding and support for graduating classes of 250 vs 10.
There are definitely some that aren’t failing but our system is failing especially in Republican held state because they are actively trying to steal from/kill public education. It’s amazing how bad things can get when people elect people that think government doesn’t work. Then use that to say how bad government works because those elected officials intentionally screw crap up.
 
Comparing public schools to private schools is an apples to oranges comparison, so I'm not implying any such thing. What I'm saying is that public schools are failing. Looking at what is going on in public schools right now it is easy to see why parents want a choice.
It is not fair to make a blanket statement that “public schools are failing”. It is fair to say there is A LOT that can be done to improve public school education in Oklahoma and no one (GOP and Dems alike) have done much in the last few decades to improve.

Teacher pay: More money needs to be paid to good educators. Teachers are woefully underpaid in Oklahoma. It is hard to attract and maintain strong teachers. So what can be done?
1) Reduce percentage of education funding directed towards administration. Not sure of statistics now, but have to imagine it is roughly the same, but in 2017 Oklahoma ranked 6th in percentage of total education funding paid for administration.
* need to reduce # of school districts. It is ridiculous we have 5x the amount of school districts than many other states.
* need to reduce administration roles. One large school district in Tulsa metroplex has five 4th grade reading curriculum teachers (all paid at certified teacher levels). My assumption is other nearby large districts are similar. There is no reason to have that many curriculum teachers that are not in the classroom.
2) merit-based pay. Here is where teacher unions absolutely hurt education. They are solidly against merit-pay. Principals should have some money to award strong teachers. School foundations in districts in affluent areas help fill this gap — but this is a big opportunity for improvement.
3) state funding: State house needs to approve another teacher pay hike.

Superintendent: Need a State Superintendent that does something and has a plan. Walters may be the worst elected leader in Oklahoma. His only redeeming value was he did get Tulsa Public Schools Superintendent Dr Gist fired —- but he has no plan to make education better in Oklahoma.

Financial Literacy: The Financial Literacy class requirement is a joke because the included curriculum is nearly worthless and currently not meaningful to HS students. Financial Literacy may be the most important class for students, IMO. The curriculum needs to be re-thought.
 
If administration was paid the same as teachers, you’d still have administrators however , then the best teachers would stay in the classroom instead of just becoming another mediocre administrator for more pay.
Also in my observation, when administration thinks they are working too hard, they split their job in two, and hire another administrator. When I started teaching we had ONE principal, one assistant principal, and one counselor. When I retired, we had less students but, ONE assistant superintendent, one principal , two vice principals, three counselors, four coordinators , and an adult education director. Small wonder instructional supplies are short, teachers aides are nonexistent. Hell we didn’t have air conditioning until fairly recently. Electricity ain’t cheap, neither are fuel costs for busses. All the new demands for computers and WiFi add to cost as well. We are 48-50th for a reason. The powers that be have education right where they want us to be. The Republicans, Betsy DeVos and Ryan Walters of the world are thrilled with the damage they’ve done. Easier to push public monies into the private schools when all you hear in the media is public schools bad/private schools good mantra.
 
my 2 cents:
broad/simple reasons: sometimes we like to blame the teachers too much (by saying things like bring in merit pay - IMO, it is difficult to judge how good of a teacher someone is by visiting their classroom 2-3 times a year; or looking at test scores) (1) I think kids are different today than 'the ole days'...is it because of both parents working now, less stability at home? divorce rates, less stability at home? COVID pause definitely hurt...
(2) teachers are also being more 'handcuffed' in what they can/should teach than in the past...we used to trust teachers to have the students best interest in mind, now we look at them with magnifying glasses, tell them what and how they can teach, take away resources, etc.
(3) it's my understanding, that some grades (pre HS), just pass kids on instead of holding them accountable and allow kids to pass easier with a drop 50, where you don't give anything less than 50%, even for missing assignments. This is not helping the student.
(4) discipline...whatever happened to corporal punishment? (ah, the good ole days) I got swats from principal once that I still feel today...had to grip his desk as far as I could, where my hip bones were up against the edge of desk which I'm pretty sure resulted in hairline fractures of said hip bones...then of course, got more swats later in evening from dad.

Sarcasm starts now:
How do we fix it? personally I think Bibles will help, and making sure US flags are in each classroom, and if we make sure students are reciting the pledge and have a few minutes of prayer things will get much better in our schools.
 
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my 2 cents:
broad/simple reasons: sometimes we like to blame the teachers too much (by saying things like bring in merit pay - IMO, it is difficult to judge how good of a teacher someone is by visiting their classroom 2-3 times a year; or looking at test scores) (1) I think kids are different today than 'the ole days'...is it because of both parents working now, less stability at home? divorce rates, less stability at home? COVID pause definitely hurt...
(2) teachers are also being more 'handcuffed' in what they can/should teach than in the past...we used to trust teachers to have the students best interest in mind, now we look at them with magnifying glasses, tell them what and how they can teach, take away resources, etc.
(3) it's my understanding, that some grades (pre HS), just pass kids on instead of holding them accountable and allow kids to pass easier with a drop 50, where you don't give anything less than 50%, even for missing assignments. This is not helping the student.
(4) discipline...whatever happened to corporal punishment? (ah, the good ole days) I got swats from principal once that I still feel today...had to grip his desk as far as I could, where my hip bones were up against the edge of desk which I'm pretty sure resulted in hairline fractures of said hip bones...then of course, got more swats later in evening from dad.

How do we fix it? personally I think Bibles will help, and making sure US flags are in each classroom, and if we make sure students are reciting the pledge and have a few minutes of prayer things will get much better in our schools.
Sorry but ONLYselecting KJV Bibles is factually establishing a state religion. Where’s the Koran, where’s the Tora, where’s the other common religions teachings in this country? Majority clearly doesn’t rule in this country, look at the electoral college as one example. My Dad retired from Superintendent but still enjoyed going to board meetings at times. More than once the Southern Baptist church in our community got a few board members elected and were wanting an actual prayer, not a moment of silence “. The board president asked for comments, then asked Dad what he thought, He surprised them by saying it was a great idea. Flabbergasted they asked why. He said: we have every variety of Christian churches in our community, along with Native American churches and atheist also. What I want is a calendar of whose praying on a certain day so I can know when to leave the kids at home, and not be subjected to religions that they don’t want their kids exposed to. They tabled the idea. Public schools have to teach every students that walk through the doors. Not just those that believe exactly like you. Schools don’t tell the Churches what to do, and it should be reciprocal. Schools should remain secular. If you want religion in your child’s upbringing then take them to church, synagogue, or whatever fits your faith. But don’t expect tax monies taken from public schools to supplement your private school choice. That’s just another tax giveaway to people who already can afford it.
 
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Sorry but ONLYselecting KJV Bibles is factually establishing a state religion. Where’s the Koran, where’s the Tora, where’s the other common religions teachings in this country? Majority clearly doesn’t rule in this country, look at the electoral college as one example. My Dad retired from Superintendent but still enjoyed going to board meetings at times. More than once the Southern Baptist church in our community got a few board members elected and were wanting an actual prayer, not a moment of silence “. The board president asked for comments, then asked Dad what he thought, He surprised them by saying it was a great idea. Flabbergasted they asked why. He said: we have every variety of Christian churches in our community, along with Native American churches and atheist also. What I want is a calendar of whose praying on a certain day so I can know when to leave the kids at home, and not be subjected to religions that they don’t want their kids exposed to. They tabled the idea. Public schools have to teach every students that walk through the doors. Not just those that believe exactly like you. Schools don’t tell the Churches what to do, and it should be reciprocal. Schools should remain secular. If you want religion in your child’s upbringing then take them to church, synagogue, or whatever fits your faith. But don’t expect tax monies taken from public schools to supplement your private school choice.
sorry to get you worked up...my last part was dripping with sarcasm...I'll go back and fix it...ha
 
my 2 cents:
broad/simple reasons: sometimes we like to blame the teachers too much (by saying things like bring in merit pay - IMO, it is difficult to judge how good of a teacher someone is by visiting their classroom 2-3 times a year; or looking at test scores) (1) I think kids are different today than 'the ole days'...is it because of both parents working now, less stability at home? divorce rates, less stability at home? COVID pause definitely hurt...
(2) teachers are also being more 'handcuffed' in what they can/should teach than in the past...we used to trust teachers to have the students best interest in mind, now we look at them with magnifying glasses, tell them what and how they can teach, take away resources, etc.
(3) it's my understanding, that some grades (pre HS), just pass kids on instead of holding them accountable and allow kids to pass easier with a drop 50, where you don't give anything less than 50%, even for missing assignments. This is not helping the student.
(4) discipline...whatever happened to corporal punishment? (ah, the good ole days) I got swats from principal once that I still feel today...had to grip his desk as far as I could, where my hip bones were up against the edge of desk which I'm pretty sure resulted in hairline fractures of said hip bones...then of course, got more swats later in evening from dad.

Sarcasm starts now:
How do we fix it? personally I think Bibles will help, and making sure US flags are in each classroom, and if we make sure students are reciting the pledge and have a few minutes of prayer things will get much better in our schools.
Man...you got me with that last part haha. I was about to ask if you had been hacked.
 
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