GOGETUMPOKE
Ranger
At what age would you consider giving your child puberty blockers?
The Death Spiral
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Polds4OSU
Marshall
you do realize there are more treatment options for gender dysmorphia than puberty blockers right ? you do realize that only 1 of the 4 treatment options involves medications right? you do realize they are blocking and preventing ALL treatment options...not just the ones involving medication right ?
At what age would you consider denying a child access to Non invasive and non medication treatment for Gender Dysmorphia ? Because right now it is being ban 100%
I would raise holy hell if my child was diagnosed with a medical condition.....there are 3 VERY viable and real treatment paths forward that do NOT require any medication....but I can't have my child receive that treatment because some people in my state don't like the fact it is real and occuring and it doesn't line up with their Religious beliefs or their morality. That's not MY or MY CHILD'S fault that you think that way and you should have NO SAY in me getting medical attention for my child because of YOUR beliefs. ESPECIALLY when there are Options that do NOT involve ANY surgery or ANY MEDICATIONS!
Your argument makes ZERO sense that this is a good thing because medication is only a small part of treatment options and is not always needed for treatment.
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GOGETUMPOKE
Ranger
You do realize that I didn’t ask you about the other treatments. It was a very specific and direct question about puberty blockers which was the main crux of the article you posted.
The law bans treatment with "GnRH agonists, known as puberty blockers, and cross-sex hormones" for minors. Hinkle wrote that the "treatments at issue are GnRH agonists, colloquially known as 'puberty blockers,' and cross-sex hormones."
A federal judge on Tuesday temporarily blocked portions of a new Florida law that bans transgender minors from receiving puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones, ruling that the state had no rational basis for denying patients treatment and saying that "gender identity is real."
Just trying to figure out where your head is on puberty blockers. Not surprisingly, you refuse to answer and go off on a rant.
My argument has always been that PF5's original meme post is an ineffective strategy for positively impacting society. He then made the instant and massive leap that I am a homophobic bigot (I am not), which got you to this point, where you've spent a lot of time and energy on this straw man. And at this point, I really don't know why you're continuing to hyperventilate about this.
And I know about the anti-trans legislation. My friend sent me a google sheet that tracks each instance of such legislation. Its sad, fear-driven, and destructive that people are attempting to legislate things in this manner. I'll admit that the first time I looked at the document, I was shocked by how much there was. I had no idea. But there are legitimate ways to address this that don't require people to be so militant, particularly among the "other" portion of the population you're ignoring in the post above.
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PF5
Sheriff
you are that person who throws an insult, then gets all worked up when the favor is returned...let's review when I implied you were a 'homophobic bigot'...
I put the highly offensive, cobative, 'idiotic', 'divisive meme up ...and you said this:
"Posts like this remind me of the girl I saw walking through Plaza District in OKC with an AR15 strapped over her shoulder; purely meant to provoke, and totally unnecessary/idiotic/counterproductive/divisive. Congrats on outing yourself."
to which I replied:
"Replies like this remind me of the prejudice and bigotry that is alive and well in our country. Congrats on outing yourself."
You reacted to the meme in a way that made me think you were having an uncomfortable month, so I reacted in like manner...
PS: it was only a funny meme...honestly, when I saw it, I chuckled thinking there Were probably people getting upset over Pride Month...that's all
Polds4OSU
Marshall
your asking my stance on a medication used to treat a legitimate medical issue? My stance is that if a Medical Professional diagnosed my child with Gender Dysmorphia and prescribed Puberty Blockers to help them deal with this medical condition. I would first seek multiple opinions from multiple medical professionals and then Select a doctor we trust the most, take the advice and treatment options that me and my family and my child are the most comfortable with after weighing all the consequences of the treatment and then select a Dr and treatment plan and move forward. That May OR May Not include Puberty Blockers. I've never been in that situation so I'm not sure what the medical side effects, expected outcomes, risks etc of these treatment plans are. This means I have no educated OPINION on puberty blockers.
This is the part I want protected. The ability and FREEDOM of myself, my wife and my kids to pick and chose the medical professional and treatment plan we feel the most comfortable with. I don't want any access to any PROVEN medical treatment blocked for me and my family or for anyone else family. Because what I listed above is a decision making process of LEGITIMATE and PROVEN Medical treatments that is between a Dr, their Patient, and the patients family. A person , a Religious Organization or A politician who is outside of that decision making process for legitimate medical treatment has NO RIGHT to have their OPINION affect that process or have their OPINION be so influential they can restrict me and my family from seeking a proven and legitimate medical treatment plan supervised by a medical professional.
Here's what actually happened.
You posted a meme intended to provoke people, and peeled your eyes for any hint of people being provoked so you could "out" them as bigots. You were looking for a fight, and shot at the first thing that moved.
My initial response to your trolling should not have made you conclude that I was having an uncomfortable month. You built that straw man on your own.
GOGETUMPOKE
Ranger
PF5
Sheriff
That is completely inaccurate. It's not a straw man. You calling it that makes me think you don't even know what a straw man is. You have specifically and explicitly equated the meme with killing Afghan civilians, called it "violent" and "militant" behavior. It's not any of those.
And you're the one hyperventilating about a meme wishing homophobes an "uncomfortable month".
Again with this nonsense....to be clear a meme wishing homophobes an "uncomfortable month" ISN'T militant, it ISN'T "violence"....it isn't even particularly "provocative" to all but the most sensitive of souls clutching pearls and looking to be offended. And I'm not ignoring any "other" portion of the population. If those others aren't "homophobes" that meme shouldn't have any effect on them because it's not talking about them.
Reasoned debate and discussion and explanation of position and asking pretty please and hoping legislatures will someday see the light was responded to WITH such anti-trans legislation. We have our answer to what "your way" got this community. It's been done. It didn't work. In fact, it pretty much backfired horribly and resulted in this legislation being passed. There is absolutely no rational reason to believe those same legislators will suddenly see the error of their ways from more of the same. That's a completely asinine contention.
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GOGETUMPOKE
Ranger
So basically, parents should be able to have any medical proceedure done to their child as long as they can get a medical professional to agree to it? We are talking about giving controversial life altering treatments to two eleven year olds and one 8 year old in this case. At some point someone has to step in and protect the kids from their parents and we have had laws on the books that do just that for a very long time.
Polds4OSU
Marshall
so the answer to stop a small % of Parents or Drs who are pursuing this type of puberty blocking treatment to further an Agenda should be grounds from restricting EVERYONE access to ALL PROVEN medical treatments for Gender Dysmorphia ? and it is going to be an very small number of rouges out there, because there are VERY few kids actually prescribed puberty blockers today. It is a very uncommon method to treating gender dysmorphia
Jeepers man, I bet you haven't coped too well with the Opioid Epidemic then
Do you know how many people are out there on these puberty blockers. From the way you talk it is a nationwide epidemic we must stop now to stop these Rouge Parents and Rouge Doctors HAHAHAHAH.
in 2021 a grand total of 5063 kids were prescribed puberty blockers ...and from 2017 to 2022 a GRAND total of 17,683 kids were prescribed Puberty blockers over that five year period.
in 2021 ALONE there were over 42,000 kids diagnosed with Gender Dysmorphia in the US.....only 5,063 were prescribed puberty blockers ....Roughly 12% of kids diagnosed in 2021 with gender dysmorphia were prescribed puberty blockers.
You have no clue what you are talking about here with Puberty Blockers. You have an emotional opinion about a proven medical procedure and you assume that parents and doctors are out there en masse trying to push some agenda and get kids on Puberty blockers based on some Conservative Political Talking points you have been fed that just aren't true.
The reality is that ~ 1 in 10 kids diagnosed with gender dysmorphia are prescribed puberty blockers
82% of those 42,000 kids diagnosed with gender dysmorphia or 34,440 will contemplate suicide
42-45% of those 42,000 kids diagnosed with Gender Dysmorphia or 17000-19000 will ATTEMPT suicide
They will succeed at killing themselves at a rate that is 8 TIMES higher than any other children's group their age.
More kids diagnosed with Gender Dysmorphia will ATTEMPT suicide EVERY SINGLE YEAR than the TOTAL number of Kids prescribed puberty blockers over an ENTIRE FIVE YEAR PERIOD.
Banning ALL treatment options because you don't agree with 1 in 10 being prescribed a puberty blocker is INSANE
there is no wide spread conspiracy or attempt to get more kids on puberty blockers
Conservative political talking heads and politicians are using scare tactics to make this seem larger than it is in order to gain power and get votes
And each and every state has a process and entity in place in which if someone suspects a Dr has gone rogue and is prescribing too much, unneeded or unnecessary medicines or treatments..they can report that Dr to that medical board and that medical board will then investigate those claims.
There is NO defendable position on preventing ALL Gender Dysmorphia treatments.
1. it is not a wide spread issue and is extremely rare compared to other medical diagnosis each year
2. Dr's already have a way to be reported, investigated and held accountable in every state if someone suspects they making medical diagnosis and treatment options to further a political or personal agenda that aren't treating an actual medical condition
3. the consequence of banning ALL treatment FAR outweigh the consequences of allowing treatment
4. There are 3 other treatment options that do not include puberty blockers but those are banned too?
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You continually take this a direction that I haven't even mentioned. I'm not talking about legislators. I'm talking about how such provocations are counterproductive to what should be an effort to positively impact the general public. People walking through a heavily populated urban area with ARs is 100% meant to make people uncomfortable in the same way that the stupid meme is. Both seek this outcome, and both are counterproductive in the context of changing people's minds for the better. A more extreme example is bombing "terrorists" in an effort to delete them instead of working to understand and address their reasons for hating us in the first place.
I don't understand your fixation on going scorched earth in response to past efforts failing. In reality, you REALLY need both. Abandoning humane efforts altogether is only going to yield more hatred in the world. Is your goal to reduce hatred in the world, or is it simply to win this culture war at all costs?
You continue to specifically and explicitly equate a simple meme with physical violence....now it's bombing.
Stop it....it's a stupid argument. It's a stupid false equivalence. It's stupid, stupid, stupid.
And you wanting to exclude legislation and legislators from the discussion about how the "general public" is impacted is even more stupid. I completely understand why you don't want to talk about oppressive/discriminatory legislation about how best to affect the general public....because it completely blows your theories out of the water. The clearest expression of effect of the general public IS the public policy enacted by the general public's elected representatives.
Now, for the FIRST time, you say that you really need both (provocation and reasoned debate/discussion). Up until this point, you have been completely claiming that provocation was counter-productive to societal change and doesn't work and will never work.
Then you yet again accuse me of a fixation on going "scorched earth" (again with the ridiculous hyperbole of equating memes and words with physical violence) when I previously said in this conversation that provocation wasn't the only way to get societal change, but that it was a needed and effective and appropriate.
With this simple statement in this post of yours...
...you are restating what I have been saying from THE VERY BEGINNING OF THIS DISCUSSION.
Jesus Christ, dude. @PF5 is completely right. You just don't get it.
In reality....you REALLY DO need both.
In reality....up until that statement you've been the one saying you don't need both...that one doesn't work and your way is the only way to engage in positive impact on society.
I think we're done here.....unless you want to change you're admission that your really need both in reality to keep arguing.
Dood... By "both" I meant legislation and humane conversations. There's still no need for trolling provocations. How are you this dense?
So now you are talking about legislators and legislation.
And I pointed out what "humane conversations" has led to with regards to anti-trans legislation.
And you respond that you're not even talking about legislators and they don't play into this discussion at all.
And advocate that more "humane conversations" are the only answer that will work in getting the recently passed anti-trans legislation changed.
Jesus Christ. You REALLY REALLY REALLY don't get it at this point.
Polds4OSU
Marshall
Ohh and the Florida Bill...yeah it is not just impacting kids
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) — Debate surrounding Florida’s new restrictions on gender-affirming care focused largely on transgender children. But a new law that Republican presidential candidate and Gov. Ron DeSantis signed last month also made it difficult – even impossible – for many transgender adults to get treatment.
Eli and Lucas, trans men who are a couple, followed the discussions in the Legislature, where Democrats warned that trans children would be more prone to suicide under a ban on gender-affirming care for minors and Republicans responded with misplaced tales of mutilated kids. Eli said he and his partner felt “blindsided” when they discovered the bill contained language that would also disrupt their lives.
“There was no communication. … Nobody was really talking about it in our circles,” said Eli, 29.
Like many transgender adults in Florida, he and Lucas are now facing tough choices, including whether to uproot their lives so that they can continue to access gender-confirming care. Clinics are also trying to figure out how to operate under regulations that have made Florida a test case for restrictions on adults.
Lucas, 26, lost his access to treatment when the Orlando clinic that prescribed him hormone replacement therapy stopped providing gender-affirming care altogether. The couple also worries about staying in a state that this year enacted several other bills targeting the LGBTQ+ community.
“My entire life is here. All my friends, my family. I just got a promotion at my job, which I’m probably not to be able to keep,” Lucas, who works in a financial aid office at a college, said. “I’m losing everything except Eli and my pets moving out of here. So this was not a decision that I took lightly at all.”
The Associated Press is not using Eli’s and Lucas’ last names because they fear reprisal. While their friends and families know they are trans, most people who meet them do not.
The new law that bans gender-affirming care for minors also mandates that adult patients seeking trans health care sign an informed consent form. It also requires a physician to oversee any health care related to transitioning, and for people to see that doctor in person. Those rules have proven particularly onerous because many people received care from nurse practitioners and used telehealth. The law also made it a crime to violate the new requirements.
Another new law that allows doctors and pharmacists to refuse to treat transgender people further limits their options.
“For trans adults, it’s devastating,” said Kate Steinle, chief clinical officer at FOLX Health, which provides gender-affirming care to trans adults through telemedicine. Her company decided to open in-person clinics and hire more physicians licensed in Florida in order to continue to provide care to patients who have already enrolled, even though that represents a major change to the company's business model.
Eli has been seeing a physician for years and therefore still has access to care. But SPEKTRUM Health Inc., the Orlando clinic that prescribed Lucas hormone replacement therapy, has stopped providing gender-affirming care.
“There are a lot of people looking for care that we’re no longer legally able to provide,” said Lana Dunn, SPEKTRUM Health’s chief operating officer.
Florida has the second-largest population of transgender adults in the U.S., at an estimated 94,900 people, according to the Williams Institute at the University of California, Los Angeles School of Law. It used state-level, population-based surveys to determine its estimates. Not all transgender people seek medical interventions.
At least 19 states have now enacted laws restricting or banning gender-affirming medical care for transgender minors. But restrictions on adults haven't been part of the conversation in most places. Missouri’s attorney general tried to impose a rule in that state, but it was pulled back.
Florida is “the proving ground of what they can get away with,” Dunn said.
Her organization treats about 4,000 people — most in Florida and some out-of-state telehealth patients, she said. While SPEKTRUM has bolstered its mental health services since the law passed, it and other organizations heavily rely on nurse practitioners to provide care.
Dunn estimates that 80% of trans adults in the state were getting their health care from a nurse practitioner and now have lost access.
"Right now what we’re seeing in the community is just chaos,” Dunn said.
The law also contains language that she said could scare off doctors who would be otherwise willing to treat trans patients, such as a 20-year statute of limitations to sue over care they provide.
As a trans woman herself, Dunn is grappling with losing her own access to hormones while trying to provide support to terrified patients. That's taken “a significant emotional toll,” she said.
“Not only am I faced with this lack of care for myself but a lot of people within the community are also facing the same thing, and they’re reaching out to me for guidance,” Dunn said. “So I’m doing my best to help guide people and console them, but nobody’s really reaching out to me saying, ’How are you doing? Are you OK?'”
Lucas, who transitioned eight years ago when he was 18, anticipates running out of hormone treatments in June. In the best case scenario he can foresee now, he will be able to get a new prescription in August. He fears he might start to get his period again.
“It’s just going to be extremely difficult mentally to have your body changing in a way that doesn’t align with your brain,” Lucas said.
Eli and Lucas have switched to a month-to-month lease and tentatively plan to relocate to Minnesota in November. They said they would leave sooner if they can afford it and started an online fundraiser to help. Moving with their dog and two cats increases the expense and difficulty of finding a new place.
“I just never thought it could happen this way, this fast and to us,” Eli said.
news.yahoo.com
Transgender adults in Florida `blindsided' that new law also limits their access to health care
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) — Debate surrounding Florida’s new restrictions on gender-affirming care focused largely on transgender children. But a new law that Republican presidential candidate and Gov. Ron DeSantis signed last month also made it difficult – even impossible – for many transgender adults to get treatment.
Eli and Lucas, trans men who are a couple, followed the discussions in the Legislature, where Democrats warned that trans children would be more prone to suicide under a ban on gender-affirming care for minors and Republicans responded with misplaced tales of mutilated kids. Eli said he and his partner felt “blindsided” when they discovered the bill contained language that would also disrupt their lives.
“There was no communication. … Nobody was really talking about it in our circles,” said Eli, 29.
Like many transgender adults in Florida, he and Lucas are now facing tough choices, including whether to uproot their lives so that they can continue to access gender-confirming care. Clinics are also trying to figure out how to operate under regulations that have made Florida a test case for restrictions on adults.
Lucas, 26, lost his access to treatment when the Orlando clinic that prescribed him hormone replacement therapy stopped providing gender-affirming care altogether. The couple also worries about staying in a state that this year enacted several other bills targeting the LGBTQ+ community.
“My entire life is here. All my friends, my family. I just got a promotion at my job, which I’m probably not to be able to keep,” Lucas, who works in a financial aid office at a college, said. “I’m losing everything except Eli and my pets moving out of here. So this was not a decision that I took lightly at all.”
The Associated Press is not using Eli’s and Lucas’ last names because they fear reprisal. While their friends and families know they are trans, most people who meet them do not.
The new law that bans gender-affirming care for minors also mandates that adult patients seeking trans health care sign an informed consent form. It also requires a physician to oversee any health care related to transitioning, and for people to see that doctor in person. Those rules have proven particularly onerous because many people received care from nurse practitioners and used telehealth. The law also made it a crime to violate the new requirements.
Another new law that allows doctors and pharmacists to refuse to treat transgender people further limits their options.
“For trans adults, it’s devastating,” said Kate Steinle, chief clinical officer at FOLX Health, which provides gender-affirming care to trans adults through telemedicine. Her company decided to open in-person clinics and hire more physicians licensed in Florida in order to continue to provide care to patients who have already enrolled, even though that represents a major change to the company's business model.
Eli has been seeing a physician for years and therefore still has access to care. But SPEKTRUM Health Inc., the Orlando clinic that prescribed Lucas hormone replacement therapy, has stopped providing gender-affirming care.
“There are a lot of people looking for care that we’re no longer legally able to provide,” said Lana Dunn, SPEKTRUM Health’s chief operating officer.
Florida has the second-largest population of transgender adults in the U.S., at an estimated 94,900 people, according to the Williams Institute at the University of California, Los Angeles School of Law. It used state-level, population-based surveys to determine its estimates. Not all transgender people seek medical interventions.
At least 19 states have now enacted laws restricting or banning gender-affirming medical care for transgender minors. But restrictions on adults haven't been part of the conversation in most places. Missouri’s attorney general tried to impose a rule in that state, but it was pulled back.
Florida is “the proving ground of what they can get away with,” Dunn said.
Her organization treats about 4,000 people — most in Florida and some out-of-state telehealth patients, she said. While SPEKTRUM has bolstered its mental health services since the law passed, it and other organizations heavily rely on nurse practitioners to provide care.
Dunn estimates that 80% of trans adults in the state were getting their health care from a nurse practitioner and now have lost access.
"Right now what we’re seeing in the community is just chaos,” Dunn said.
The law also contains language that she said could scare off doctors who would be otherwise willing to treat trans patients, such as a 20-year statute of limitations to sue over care they provide.
As a trans woman herself, Dunn is grappling with losing her own access to hormones while trying to provide support to terrified patients. That's taken “a significant emotional toll,” she said.
“Not only am I faced with this lack of care for myself but a lot of people within the community are also facing the same thing, and they’re reaching out to me for guidance,” Dunn said. “So I’m doing my best to help guide people and console them, but nobody’s really reaching out to me saying, ’How are you doing? Are you OK?'”
Lucas, who transitioned eight years ago when he was 18, anticipates running out of hormone treatments in June. In the best case scenario he can foresee now, he will be able to get a new prescription in August. He fears he might start to get his period again.
“It’s just going to be extremely difficult mentally to have your body changing in a way that doesn’t align with your brain,” Lucas said.
Eli and Lucas have switched to a month-to-month lease and tentatively plan to relocate to Minnesota in November. They said they would leave sooner if they can afford it and started an online fundraiser to help. Moving with their dog and two cats increases the expense and difficulty of finding a new place.
“I just never thought it could happen this way, this fast and to us,” Eli said.
Transgender adults in Florida `blindsided' that new law also limits their access to health care
Debate surrounding Florida’s new restrictions on gender-affirming care focused largely on transgender children. Eli and Lucas, trans men who are a couple, followed the discussions in the Legislature, where Democrats warned that trans children would be more prone to suicide under a ban on...
I assume that you understand how democracy works, and how the population actually has a say in who gets elected, and how their internal thoughts and values actually play into that process... The two are not isolated in vacuums as you seem to believe. I just choose to put most of my effort and focus on individuals, not legislative action. I feel its more productive to sit down over a meal with my non-binary or gay friends, ask them about their lives, and let them ask me about my life. We both walk away valuing each other, even if we disagree on certain things. And since we all vote, those values play into who gets elected. I'm much more likely to oppose anti-trans legislation having had respectful conversations with trans or non-binary friends than if they had approached me disrespectfully or tried to delete me for not understanding them.
Regardless, there's no place for low-level trolling tactics, even if the goal is to force your morality through legislation.
Sure thing pearlclutcher.
GOGETUMPOKE
Ranger
FFS, man. You posted an article about the decision in Florida that makes no mention whatsoever of any treatment other than puberty blockers. I asked you a specific question about what age you think puberty blockers are appropriate. If you think its ok to give an 8 year old puberty blockers just say so and lay off all the other so called treatments that the article doesn't even mention. These three other gender dysmorphia treatments (again not even mentioned in the article that you posted) that you speak of aren't without controversy either. Not exactly the settled science that you purport it to be. As far as suicide rates go, I would think that those rates will be pretty high for those 8-11 year olds when they reach adulthood. In summary, my opinion is that it is absolute insanity and criminal to alter a child's gender until they are able to make that decision on their own as an adult. I suspect that you feel the same way but aren't willing to admit it because it damages the agenda that you so desperately want to push.
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