Border problem.

I don’t think it would be extreme to add to the first sentence w responsible tax cuts.
But my point is that effective compromise is going to involve giving in one area of public concern by one party to get movement in some other area of public concern.

Arguing that Ukraine funding or tax cuts or whatever has no place in dealing and compromising on border issues is an insistence on ideological purity. Lankford is getting censured for having the audacity to attempt to compromise using multiple issues of concern. Heck, that’s what compromise is. Insistence on “single issue” negotiation or compromise is exercising ideological purity and results in no negotiation at all.
 
But my point is that effective compromise is going to involve giving in one area of public concern by one party to get movement in some other area of public concern.

Arguing that Ukraine funding or tax cuts or whatever has no place in dealing and compromising on border issues is an insistence on ideological purity. Lankford is getting censured for having the audacity to attempt to compromise using multiple issues of concern. Heck, that’s what compromise is. Insistence on “single issue” negotiation or compromise is exercising ideological purity and results in no negotiation at all.
I 100% agree. I was not replying in the current context of negotiations. I should have been clear and I am saying that on a list of non extreme issues responsible tax cuts for me would be on that list.

I don’t understand (I do but that’s a different rabbit hole) why people think a “pure” bill would ever get passed. It won’t now and it won’t in the next administration.

I actually hope it passes and Ukraine gets funded. I think maybe crazy old senile codger Joe outflanked some Rs bc they asked and he gave. Now they have to actually pass or see ads run for months showing how Rs aren’t serious about border control/immigration.

That might not matter to WhataboutBob or other posters on here but it will to independents. And that again is where this will be won or lost.
 
I 100% agree. I was not replying in the current context of negotiations. I should have been clear and I am saying that on a list of non extreme issues responsible tax cuts for me would be on that list.

I don’t understand (I do but that’s a different rabbit hole) why people think a “pure” bill would ever get passed. It won’t now and it won’t in the next administration.

I actually hope it passes and Ukraine gets funded. I think maybe crazy old senile codger Joe outflanked some Rs bc they asked and he gave. Now they have to actually pass or see ads run for months showing how Rs aren’t serious about border control/immigration.

That might not matter to WhataboutBob or other posters on here but it will to independents. And that again is where this will be won or lost.
We are 100% in agreement.

And WaB and his cohort calls that extremism.
 
We are 100% in agreement.

And WaB and his cohort calls that extremism.
No. Your fervent desire to defend a political party is extreme.

It is folly to blame Republicans for the border bill if they don’t want to bundle Ukraine Funding. It is not a secret that many R’s do not want to fund Ukraine more. But because of your extreme partisanship you do.

Just like it would be folly to blame Democrats for lack of border bill if R’s tried to bundle tax cuts. It is not a secret that many D’s do no want tax cuts.

Do you disagree with this statement that I included on a previous post?:
We simply cannot allow people to pour into the United States undetected, undocumented, unchecked, and circumventing the line of people who are waiting patiently, diligently, and lawfully to become immigrants in this country
 
No. Your fervent desire to defend a political party is extreme.

It is folly to blame Republicans for the border bill if they don’t want to bundle Ukraine Funding. It is not a secret that many R’s do not want to fund Ukraine more. But because of your extreme partisanship you do.

Just like it would be folly to blame Democrats for lack of border bill if R’s tried to bundle tax cuts. It is not a secret that many D’s do no want tax cuts.

Do you disagree with this statement that I included on a previous post?:
We simply cannot allow people to pour into the United States undetected, undocumented, unchecked, and circumventing the line of people who are waiting patiently, diligently, and lawfully to become immigrants in this country
Are you saying that more funding for Ukraine is an extreme and partisan issue?
 
No. Your fervent desire to defend a political party is extreme.

It is folly to blame Republicans for the border bill if they don’t want to bundle Ukraine Funding. It is not a secret that many R’s do not want to fund Ukraine more. But because of your extreme partisanship you do.

Just like it would be folly to blame Democrats for lack of border bill if R’s tried to bundle tax cuts. It is not a secret that many D’s do no want tax cuts.

Do you disagree with this statement that I included on a previous post?:
We simply cannot allow people to pour into the United States undetected, undocumented, unchecked, and circumventing the line of people who are waiting patiently, diligently, and lawfully to become immigrants in this country
More mischaracterizing. More strawmanning. More refusing to engage in good faith with the actual statements made.

How about not trying to tell me whom I’m blaming for the fiasco at the border…..especially when I have explicitly said in this thread that historically both parties are equally to blame.

I’ve attacked and criticized Democrats and Biden more than you’ve ever thought of doing with MAGA.

Insisting upon single issue negotiations is an exercise in ideological purity that is fully a position of non-compromise.

Right now, the MAGA element of the Republican Party, bowing down to their Beloved Leader, is demanding concessions on the border and not willing to concede on any other issues anywhere. Biden has established willingness to compromise and negotiate. MAGA has clearly shown and Trump expressly said they’re not interested in compromise or negotiation because getting something done right now could help Biden. Trump is choosing his own self interest over actually possibly making some positive movement towards border security.

It is “folly” to demand concessions on the single issue of border security without showing a willingness to make any concessions on any issue. That’s not negotiating. That’s not compromising. That’s dictating and showing you’re not serious about accomplishing anything but trying to get your boy re-elected.

Lankford is a 100% right.

I agree that we need better border security. I also believe that we need comprehensive immigration reform well beyond the ”keep them out” histrionics. If you and MAGA were seriously on board with getting something done on the border instead of just scoring political points for Trump, they’d be negotiating and compromising in good faith rather than taking the position they presently are.
 
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No. Your fervent desire to defend a political party is extreme.

It is folly to blame Republicans for the border bill if they don’t want to bundle Ukraine Funding. It is not a secret that many R’s do not want to fund Ukraine more. But because of your extreme partisanship you do.

Just like it would be folly to blame Democrats for lack of border bill if R’s tried to bundle tax cuts. It is not a secret that many D’s do no want tax cuts.

Do you disagree with this statement that I included on a previous post?:
We simply cannot allow people to pour into the United States undetected, undocumented, unchecked, and circumventing the line of people who are waiting patiently, diligently, and lawfully to become immigrants in this country
Well, we have always had compromise on bills like this. So, either the republicans are going to have to decide that, yes, we can let people pour into the US or they will need to compromise and agree to fund other needs. That is the way of our government.

I really don’t post enough to know if you really don’t understand that is how our government works or if you are just grandstanding to give an excuse. But, as I pointed out and you ignored, republicans add more to bills than dems do. To all the sudden decide that this bill must stand alone is either partisan or ignorant of our government. I can’t figure out which you are being from your responses.
 

McConnell bedeviled as Trump, GOP move goalposts on border​



Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell (Ky.) has made supporting the war in Ukraine a signature policy priority, but his efforts have been complicated by fellow Republicans, including former President Trump, who are moving the goalposts on the issue.

McConnell appeared to be on solid footing when he told President Biden and Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen in phone calls before Thanksgiving that Biden’s funding request for Ukraine would not pass the Senate “without a credible border solution.”



“I did make it clear to both of them that we have to have a credible solution to the wide-open border in order to get a bill … across the Senate floor,” he said at the time. “I hope they understood the message.”

But at a special meeting of the Republican conference Wednesday afternoon, McConnell acknowledged, according to a GOP senator in the room, that “the political situation has drifted.”

A big reason is Trump, who in the interim has won the Iowa caucuses and New Hampshire primary, tightening his grip on the GOP.

Republican senators say Trump is now telling GOP lawmakers he wants to deny President Biden a victory and run on the issue — a motivation that Sen. Mitt Romney (R-Utah) on Thursday blasted as “appalling.”

Sen. Thom Tillis (R-N.C.) said Republicans would make a serious mistake by walking away from the border deal in the belief that it will somehow help Trump beat Biden in the November election.


“If we fail to get this passed, I’m going to file exactly the same bill if Trump wins and we have a majority of the Senate. I’ll guarantee you that everybody who’s against it. It’s all about politics and not having the courage to respectfully disagree with President Trump and tell him: ‘This will help him.’ He has requested it before,” Tillis said.

“I didn’t come here to have a president as a boss or a candidate as a boss. I came here to pass good, solid policy that will help a president who is serious [about] securing the border,” he said.

Senate and House Republicans at one time seemed unified about attaching border security language to an emergency defense spending bill funding Ukraine, Israel and the defense of Taiwan. But that has steadily shifted.

GOP senators who support the bill say the biggest obstacle to passing any border security legislation is Trump, who in 2018 urged Congress to act on border legislation.


Trump said in November 2018 the “only long-term solution to the crisis and the only way to ensure the endurance of our nation as a sovereign country is for Congress to overcome open borders obstruction.”

Trump complained at the time that caravans of illegal migrants were drawn to the country by “Democrat-backed laws” and “left-wing judicial rulings” that tied his hands as president.

“It’s a disgrace we have to put up with it,” he said.

Five years later, Trump is arguing against action by Congress, saying the emerging bill is insufficient and calling on Republicans to reject it, without seeing all of its details.

“I do not think we should do a Border Deal, at all, unless we get EVERYTHING needed to shut down the INVASION of Millions & Millions of people,” Trump wrote on Truth Social.

Some Republican senators think some of their conservative colleagues have also shifted on the need to have a border bill, to align themselves with Trump and take shots at their leadership.


Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) told Fox News’s Jacqui Heinrich this week: “We don’t need a border bill.”

But in 2019, when Trump was president, he argued Congress needed to act to help him secure the border.

“There is a crisis at our border,” he tweeted in June of that year. “We cannot remain [idle as] the [Customs and Border Patrol] works tirelessly to protect our border. Congress needs to do its job & provide CBP the support they need.”

McConnell has argued the emerging border deal is the only opportunity in the foreseeable future to get any Democratic votes to reform the nation’s asylum laws and give the president more authority to detain and deport migrants, arguing such proposals wouldn’t get any Democratic support under a Republican president.

Trump, when he was president, even acknowledged he couldn’t get any bipartisan support in Congress for border security reform.


“It’s open border obstruction. No votes. You can come up with the greatest border plan, the greatest immigration plan. You won’t get one vote from a Democrat,” Trump said five years ago.

The emergency defense supplemental bill would include more than $14 billion to secure the border in addition to reforming asylum policy and giving the president enhanced authority to detain and deport migrants.

Senate Republicans who support a package funding Ukraine and reforming the nation’s asylum laws feel let down by Speaker Mike Johnson (R-La.), who has consulted with Trump frequently on the border crisis, and warned colleagues in a letter Friday that the Senate bill — unless dramatically changed — wouldn’t even get a vote in the House.

“If rumors about the contents of the draft proposal are true, it would have been dead on arrival in the House anyway,” Johnson said in the letter.

GOP senators see that as a departure from what he told GOP colleagues in early December that making changes to U.S. border policy would be their “hill to die on” in negotiations over funding for Ukraine and Israel.

Johnson also told President Biden and other congressional leaders at a White House meeting on Jan. 17 that “we must have change at the border, substantive policy change.”

The House passed H.R. 2, the Secure the Border Act, in May, which would have required Customs and Border Patrol to maintain their staffing at 22,000 agents, required the Biden administration to restart construction of the southern border wall, and end the policy of paroling migrants into the country, which critics call “catch and release.”

Johnson told Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) in a phone call on Nov. 30 that he could only pass Ukraine funding if border security language was attached to it.

The Speaker insisted on the call that the House-passed bill, H.R. 2, be part of the package, but Schumer informed him at that time the House bill was a “non-starter” and would have to be modified.

Sen. James Lankford (R-Okla.), the lead Republican negotiator on the Senate’s border security package, the following day, Dec. 1, put on the table proposals that pretty much mirrored H.R. 2.

After weeks of painstaking negotiations, Lankford said he is very close to a bipartisan deal that he thinks can secure the support of half the Senate Republican Conference. But now Johnson, who is in close touch with Trump, is declaring it dead in the House based on the details that have leaked out.

That turn of events is exasperating senators who worked for months to extract border concessions from the White House and Senate Democrats.

Lankford said McConnell acknowledged during Wednesday’s meeting what many Senate Republicans now recognize: Presidential politics are driving Republican lawmakers in both chambers to oppose a bill they may have supported last year.

“He was being very clear. Hey, we need to acknowledge this is part of the dialogue and there are some people that oppose the bill based on the presidential politics issue rather than the crisis that’s actually occurring at the border,” Lankford said.

The Oklahoma senator said McConnell read quotes from Trump while he was president asking for a change in the nation’s asylum laws

“That’s one of the things that’s in this bill, that’s been needed and will be needed by every president,” Lankford said.
 
Laying the border crisis solely at the feet of the GOP is nearsighted. It's both of them of years.....

This admin has done nothing for three years of numbers that are staggering. To claim they are serious now but the GOP won't play ball is exactly what they are accusing the GOP of....playing games. This is a problem decades in making by both parties. Through multiple Rep admins they rattled sabers and did little to nothing to not piss off donors that love cheap labor talk a big game but not act. "They're stealin' our jooooobbbsss" and calling the other side weak and saying they hate the "real" America. During the same time the dems labeled folks "asylum seekers" and grandstanded with sanctuary cities (that turns out have little appetite for immigration) and did all they could to make the the GOP look like they don't care about people while not giving a single care for the humans involved.

There has been a paradigm shift in the numbers during this administration.....Trump mainly talks tough on the border (he was tougher but it's not like no one crossed on his watch)....looks like he is the guy....so now it's a big deal to them after they wouldn't even acknowledge it was a problem for for the first 3/4s of the term. Now Biden says he can shut it down if you'll just sign this bill that has 2 times what the wall (I'm not a build the wall guy but if your reason against was money that ain't it no more) couldn't afford earmarked for another country in one of our proxy wars....well I guess one of them isn't just proxy anymore. The legislation isn't about money for the border....it's a line item to look tough on a topic they have failed to do anything about. If you have the ability to shut it down and did nothing till now then you are a huge part of the problem....this brand new problem that nothing could have been done about for three years is now just a signature away.

Abbot needs to go away. Border states that are feeling the brunt rightfully should be able to take actions but what he is doing is political theater that has reached dangerous heights. The three central figures are Abbot, Biden, Trump and it's hard to find a single redeeming quality in any of them so we shouldn't expect much in the way of improvement.

This is all more of the same about something we have to get some semblance of control over. Neither party is serious about it all. It's political stunt busses headed to political stunt sanctuary cities....it's Abbot giving the finger to feds to look cool for all the Republic of Texas crowd and make the dems look bad....and Biden realizing he has no chance if the courts don't go his way so I better wake up and realize 8M people of whom we don't know who is who have walked across on his watch.....and Trump keeping the blood from being poisoned.

It's all still games on both sides. Neither side is serious....it's election time not problem fixing time.
 
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Laying the border crisis solely at the feet of the GOP is nearsighted. It's both of them of years.....

This admin has done nothing for three years of numbers that are staggering. To claim they are serious now but the GOP won't play ball is exactly what they are accusing the GOP of....playing games. This is a problem decades in making by both parties. Through multiple Rep admins they rattled sabers and did little to nothing to not piss off donors that love cheap labor talk a big game but not act. "They're stealin' our jooooobbbsss" and calling the other side weak and saying they hate the "real" America. During the same time the dems labeled folks "asylum seekers" and grandstanded with sanctuary cities (that turns out have little appetite for immigration) and did all they could to make the the GOP look like they don't care about people while not giving a single care for the humans involved.

There has been a paradigm shift in the numbers during this administration.....Trump mainly talks tough on the border (he was tougher but it's not like no one crossed on his watch)....looks like he is the guy....so now it's a big deal to them after they wouldn't even acknowledge it was a problem for for the first 3/4s of the term. Now Biden says he can shut it down if you'll just sign this bill that has 12 times what the wall (I'm not a build the wall guy but if your reason against was money that ain't it no more) couldn't afford earmarked for another country in one of our proxy wars....well I guess one of them isn't just proxy anymore. The legislation isn't about money for the border....it's a line item to look tough on a topic they have failed to do anything about. If you have the ability to shut it down and did nothing till now then you are a huge part of the problem....this brand new problem that nothing could have been done about for three years is now just a signature away.

Abbot needs to go away. Border states that are feeling the brunt rightfully should be able to take actions but what he is doing is political theater that has reached dangerous heights. The three central figures are Abbot, Biden, Trump and it's hard to find a single redeeming quality in any of them so we shouldn't expect much in the way of improvement.

This is all more of the same about something we have to get some semblance of control over. Neither party is serious about it all. It's political stunt busses headed to political stunt sanctuary cities....it's Abbot giving the finger to feds to look cool for all the Republic of Texas crowd and make the dems look bad....and Biden realizing he has no chance if the courts don't go his way so I better wake up and realize 8M people of whom we don't know who is who have walked across on his watch.....and Trump keeping the blood from being poisoned.

It's all still games on both sides. Neither side is serious....it's election time not problem fixing time.
I’d like to read the bill Langford and Schumer are working on before I give up all hope of fixing the border crisis. If it’s better than ever before or actually might work then gets voted down. Finger pointing might be appropriate. Just a reminder:Biden dropped a border bill on Congress on day one of his administration. I don’t think Dems are the ones that canned it. Let’s read the bipartisan bill when it’s released.
 
I’d like to read the bill Langford and Schumer are working on before I give up all hope of fixing the border crisis. If it’s better than ever before or actually might work then gets voted down. Finger pointing might be appropriate. Just a reminder:Biden dropped a border bill on Congress on day one of his administration. I don’t think Dems are the ones that canned it. Let’s read the bipartisan bill when it’s released.
He wouldn't acknowledge it was a problem at all and got nothing done while his party had the majority. It's on both parties for years but it's impossible to say it hasn't been handled worse by this admin due to the math. The math is undeniable. You can't be the party of asylum to make your predecessor look bad....then not be able to make meaningful change because of your narrative for years....then blame the issue on of the other folks.

The Biden admin's calling card is we can't do anything because of somebody else....every problem is because of somebody else. Even if true it means they aren't capable of governing when it's been your turn for pretty much a full term now.
 
Assuming for sake of argument that the border question is on both parties for years (that is true) and even assuming for the sake of argument that Donny is correct that Biden has handled it worse during this admin to date (arguable).....

The facts AS WE SPEAK are:

1. There is a proposed agreement on the table that Lankford sets forth pretty clearly will improve the border problem.....not necessarily fully solve, but improve it;
2. Mitch McConnell is the one that connected Ukraine aid to coming up with a border deal; and,
3. It's the MAGAites alone that are PRESENTLY AS WE SPEAK scuttling any possibility of improving the border situation.
 
Assuming for sake of argument that the border question is on both parties for years (that is true) and even assuming for the sake of argument that Donny is correct that Biden has handled it worse during this admin to date (arguable).....

The facts AS WE SPEAK are:

1. There is a proposed agreement on the table that Lankford sets forth pretty clearly will improve the border problem.....not necessarily fully solve, but improve it;
2. Mitch McConnell is the one that connected Ukraine aid to coming up with a border deal; and,
3. It's the MAGAites alone that are PRESENTLY AS WE SPEAK scuttling any possibility of improving the border situation.
What’s been discussed here the last few days only reinforces my belief that a lot of people (including 99% of the Magastanians just want to be miserable SoBs who play victim at every opportunity. They truly embody the spirit of their “found libel for sexual assault, defamation, fraud and charged w 91 counts and 2x impeached and loser to arguably the weakest D candidate since Mondale who is legally prohibited from running a non profit in NY bc he stole from kids w cancer and who presently isn’t on the ballot in CO bc members of his own party believed him to be in violation of the 14th Amendment & petioned the courts to remove him” Beloved Leader.

Did I leave anything out?
 
What’s been discussed here the last few days only reinforces my belief that a lot of people (including 99% of the Magastanians just want to be miserable SoBs who play victim at every opportunity. They truly embody the spirit of their “found libel for sexual assault, defamation, fraud and charged w 91 counts and 2x impeached and loser to arguably the weakest D candidate since Mondale who is legally prohibited from running a non profit in NY bc he stole from kids w cancer and who presently isn’t on the ballot in CO bc members of his own party believed him to be in violation of the 14th Amendment & petioned the courts to remove him” Beloved Leader.

Did I leave anything out?
Yeah, he stole government documents that do not belong to him, and lied about it, then moved the boxes around to avoid discovery. He invited Russians into the Oval Office without US interpreters or anyone else in the room. His son in law Jared was working to create a back door channel for secret communications with the Russians. He sure didn’t turn down the Russians help getting him elected. Patriot my ass, this guys a traitor IMO
I smell smoke.
 
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Laying the border crisis solely at the feet of the GOP is nearsighted. It's both of them of years.....
This admin has done nothing for three years of numbers that are staggering. To claim they are serious now but the GOP won't play ball is exactly what they are accusing the GOP of....playing games. This is a problem decades in making by both parties. Through multiple Rep admins they rattled sabers and did little to nothing to not piss off donors that love cheap labor talk a big game but not act. "They're stealin' our jooooobbbsss" and calling the other side weak and saying they hate the "real" America. During the same time the dems labeled folks "asylum seekers" and grandstanded with sanctuary cities (that turns out have little appetite for immigration) and did all they could to make the the GOP look like they don't care about people while not giving a single care for the humans involved.
Huh?

It isn't the Dems claiming that the GOP won't play. It is Lankford.

From that liberal rag, the WSJ:
Sen. James Lankford (R., Okla.), the GOP’s lead negotiator, said critics of the bill are relying on “internet rumors” to trash the bill before they have seen it. He characterized the legislation as an intervention to force the Biden administration to stem the flow of people across the southern border and said the tools it creates would also be available to future presidents.

“This bill focuses on getting us to zero illegal crossings a day,” Lankford said on “Fox News Sunday.” “There’s no amnesty, it increases the number of border patrol agents, it increases asylum officers, it increases detention beds so we can quickly detain and then deport individuals.”


And why is this bill suddenly dying? Again, the WSJ:

‘Don’t need a new bill’

The pushback from some Republicans has come as former President Donald Trump, the front-runner for the 2024 Republican nomination, has opposed the measure, saying he would “rather have no bill than a bad bill.” He privately told some GOP senators that he is upset that those in the party would consider voting for a border package because it would give Biden a political win on a top Trump campaign issue, according to a person familiar with the remarks.


Nobody is claiming that the overall border problem is only the republican party. They have all been screwing it up for years. But, there was nearly a compromise and Trump is torpedoing it for election-year politics. If you want to claim that the dems were only finally gonna move because of the election, sure, maybe. But, to claim the party finally doing the right thing and the party continuing to avoid the right thing is the same game would mean that we should expect our government to stop trying to fix issues 12 months before elections. Is that what you want?
 
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