Vaccines

80% of America got at least one round of the covid shot because we were told if you get the shot covid stops there you won't get it or give it. Then they got covid. Then you needed a booster. Then they got covid.

Then the Cleveland Clinic study came out.

That's why people don't trust vaccines as much as they used to. See the measles chart our whole lives vaccines meant you didn't get something.

That is in no way shape or form a statement to say the vaccine provided no protection against covid or lessen the severity of cases. I am not saying that.

Yep. Unfortunately people can't get through all the bullshit on their social media feeds and mainstream media. From the start, the official message of the CDC was that you can still get Covid, but the vaccine is highly effective at keeping people out of the hospital. But you had Maddow, Biden, Fauci, and others on the Left saying wildly inaccurate things on TV for whatever reason. Sensationalism gets clicks I guess.

This is from the Oklahoma Dept of Health during the big wave closer to Fall 2021. This is as close as you get to data being glaringly obvious.

Oklahoma Weekly Epidemiology Reports

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not sure where you got that info...but, when I decided to receive COVID vaccine I knew it wasn't to guarantee I would not get COVID or spread it, I was under the assumption that it would help in limiting the severity of the illness and the conditions post COVID, and help to limit the spread...
I can't point to a CDC letter or anything that ever said 100% effective. I doubt that has ever been said about any vaccine from the manufacturer or FDA. The pill is only 90 something percent effective and we don't question it when its time to get busy. The message....in the beginning at least.......from media, government, medicine was it was safe and effective and will stop the spread of covid and prevent one from contracting it. There was billboard on the closest freeway exit to my house that had an arm with a bandage on with a check mark that said "Covid stops with me" for example. That is far from a scientific study but a clear message. It wasn't as safe or as effective as what we have understood of vaccines our whole lives. That doesn't mean it's dangerous or useless but it hurt the message.

All the if you get the jab your kids will be born with tails or if you don't get your 4th booster you don't believe in science stuff created fatigue. Both are wrong and people are sick of both. Overall trust in a good thing suffers for it.
 
All the if you get the jab your kids will be born with tails or if you don't get your 4th booster you don't believe in science stuff created fatigue. Both are wrong and people are sick of both. Overall trust in a good thing suffers for it.

These people on both sides are a symptom of "doing your own research" on the internet from sources just looking to confirm and reinforce whatever bias they already have instead of having a serious conversation with their doctor about the risks and benefits.
 
the main reason I started this thread was my confusion as to why some are going away from wanting childhood vaccines...they work, and not sure why people would not want to have their child vaccinated...Sooooooo, is it because of peoples mistrust of COVID vaccines? or the rhetoric of leaders/media?
the following chart is from Gallup: why is there such a disparity between reds and blues??
Screenshot 2024-11-21 11.05.09 AM.png
 
Most of what was said regarding efficacy was true at the time it was said. Problem was that we had no idea how quickly or how much the virus would mutate and it was quick and significant. The good news of rapid mutation is that it becane much less virulent. The bad news was that it made what was said seem like lies.

The background of scientific debates that usually takes years and is limited to scientists happened in real time with the public involved. The public doesnt understand how it works.
 
the main reason I started this thread was my confusion as to why some are going away from wanting childhood vaccines...they work, and not sure why people would not want to have their child vaccinated...Sooooooo, is it because of peoples mistrust of COVID vaccines? or the rhetoric of leaders/media?
the following chart is from Gallup: why is there such a disparity between reds and blues??
View attachment 8449

People who are rejecting the traditional vaccines are generally a little nutty. Thats just the sum of it.
 
I just went on vacation with a big group of people to Mexico. One of the dudes cornered me and talked at me for about 15 minutes on the reasons he voted for trump. His main reason is that it got RFK in a position to do something about vaccines.

"RFK isn't an anti vaxxer like the leftists want you to believe. He just wants to study the links between vaccines and autism".

I told him that those studies have been done many times over, but he thinks they were all done by corrupt entities. I had to leave before I said something I'd regret.
 
I just went on vacation with a big group of people to Mexico. One of the dudes cornered me and talked at me for about 15 minutes on the reasons he voted for trump. His main reason is that it got RFK in a position to do something about vaccines.

"RFK isn't an anti vaxxer like the leftists want you to believe. He just wants to study the links between vaccines and autism".

I told him that those studies have been done many times over, but he thinks they were all done by corrupt entities. I had to leave before I said something I'd regret.

What's he gonna think when RFK gets clipped during the senate confirmation process?


I thought more access to information would make us smarter. It seems to be doing the opposite.
 
Also access to factually inaccurate information, and can be hard to tell the difference.
This is becoming nearly impossible.

1. For sure, looking at the media trying to analyze scientific studies is a fool's game. For example:

2. Academic publishing is a scam. The researcher and peer reviewers get nothing. The publisher makes billions. If the researcher wants the article to be open access, they pay huge fees on top of giving up the research for free. Does anyone think this system is giving us good, unfiltered information?

3. Industry is now funding much out of academic centers. It is possible to figure this out, but not always easy.

And, there have been many times that industry has been found to be withholding critical but damaging data or setting up research that is basically "can't lose." This all ignores the common problems of the desire to publishing only positive studies, confounding, and data mining.

Finally, most of us (me included) have an opinion, then seek out research that confirms the opinion. Given the volume of data available, that is easy to do. But, in an ideal world, we would question a hypothesis, seek data regarding it, then review all to try to determine what the majority of good data concludes.
 
It should also be said that there is an understandable increase in the distrust of everything now.
 
It should also be said that there is an understandable increase in the distrust of everything now.
I’m not certain of how you mean this. While I agree that a healthy skepticism is good, I would put emphasis on “healthy.” The biggest issue is where people DO put their trust. When we decide experts aren’t our trusted source of information, then who/what replaces them?

Hence, we have large numbers of disillusioned individuals embracing conspiracy theories. My son has a friend whose father prides himself in not “falling for” generally accepted information. He sees himself as too smart to be a sheep. Yet, guess what? He’s a flat-earther.

So, yes, we have reason to not blindly accept whatever we hear from authorities. Yet, we can’t discount everything or replace those authorities with something else simply because it is subversive to those authorities.
 
I’m not certain of how you mean this. While I agree that a healthy skepticism is good, I would put emphasis on “healthy.” The biggest issue is where people DO put their trust. When we decide experts aren’t our trusted source of information, then who/what replaces them?

Hence, we have large numbers of disillusioned individuals embracing conspiracy theories. My son has a friend whose father prides himself in not “falling for” generally accepted information. He sees himself as too smart to be a sheep. Yet, guess what? He’s a flat-earther.

So, yes, we have reason to not blindly accept whatever we hear from authorities. Yet, we can’t discount everything or replace those authorities with something else simply because it is subversive to those authorities.

I think a lot of it is misinformation, whether deliberate or not, from social media. There are people who want leaders at the CDC jailed because of Soros funded Ukrainian bio labs or some crap.
 
I’m not certain of how you mean this. While I agree that a healthy skepticism is good, I would put emphasis on “healthy.” The biggest issue is where people DO put their trust. When we decide experts aren’t our trusted source of information, then who/what replaces them?

Hence, we have large numbers of disillusioned individuals embracing conspiracy theories. My son has a friend whose father prides himself in not “falling for” generally accepted information. He sees himself as too smart to be a sheep. Yet, guess what? He’s a flat-earther.

So, yes, we have reason to not blindly accept whatever we hear from authorities. Yet, we can’t discount everything or replace those authorities with something else simply because it is subversive to those authorities.
Donald Trump is a pathological liar and our President.....now Pres elect

We were just gaslighted for 4 years that Joe Biden is "sharp as a tack"

What we hear on the news is so slanted one way or the other it rarely is the actual story and media outlets.....not just social media.... are running retractions and losing lawsuits faster than I can ever remember.

There is a reason to not trust what you hear. There is an overall distrust in everything now and it is justifiable.
 
Donald Trump is a pathological liar and our President.....now Pres elect

We were just gaslighted for 4 years that Joe Biden is "sharp as a tack"

What we hear on the news is so slanted one way or the other it rarely is the actual story and media outlets.....not just social media.... are running retractions and losing lawsuits faster than I can ever remember.

There is a reason to not trust what you hear. There is an overall distrust in everything now and it is justifiable.
So, who do we trust? Or do you “do your own research?”
 
Donald Trump is a pathological liar and our President.....now Pres elect

We were just gaslighted for 4 years that Joe Biden is "sharp as a tack"

What we hear on the news is so slanted one way or the other it rarely is the actual story and media outlets.....not just social media.... are running retractions and losing lawsuits faster than I can ever remember.

There is a reason to not trust what you hear. There is an overall distrust in everything now and it is justifiable.
Also, I think there is a big difference between “trust but verify” / healthy skepticism and the kind of distrust you seem to be implying.
 
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Also, I think there is a big difference between “trust but verify”, healthy skepticism, and the kind of distrust you seem to be implying.

Yeah. It's a big stretch from trust but verify to everyone is lying to me.

People who want to believe the media is lying to them look for confirmation bias and unfortunately it's not that hard to find sometimes. But I don't think they would accept the truth if it challenged how they view the world. It's easier to find something that confirms their views that to seek out an uncomfortable truth.
 
Most of what was said regarding efficacy was true at the time it was said. Problem was that we had no idea how quickly or how much the virus would mutate and it was quick and significant. The good news of rapid mutation is that it becane much less virulent. The bad news was that it made what was said seem like lies.

The background of scientific debates that usually takes years and is limited to scientists happened in real time with the public involved. The public doesnt understand how it works.

In March 2020 we knew almost nothing about COVID-2019. We had a faculty meeting on Tuesday and our university president said that we were going to continue with classes as planned. On Wednesday the governor of Ohio, a Republican, had a meeting with all university presidents in the state. On Thursday our president said we were sending our students home on Friday and to prepare to start teaching classes via Zoom on Monday. I had class at 0800 on Monday morning, which meant I had to learn out to teach via Zoom over the weekend.

When I was in pharmacy school in the mid-late 80s it was considered contraindicated to give patients with heart failure beta-blockers. The thinking was that the negative inotropic and chronotropic effects would worsen heart failure and kill patients. We were told it was malpractice. Now we not only know this to be untrue, beta-blockers are considered to be first line therapy for heart failure with reduced ejection fraction and are known to improve five-year survival rates with HFrEF. Science changes as we learn new stuff.

You and I, steross, are used to seeing the science change like it did with beta blockers and HFrEF (and I can think of a few others within my expertise such as how we dose statins and the targets for blood pressure and what hyperinsulinemia means). However, this process generally takes decades and the public is unaware of the changes. I have never seen the science develop, change, and result in public policy as rapidly and publicly as it did with COVID-19. It was difficult for me to keep up with and I'm a freaking published scientist, though infectious disease, immunology, and epidemiology aren't my fields I'm still not a lay-person with a lay-person's understanding of them. It is small wonder that it was bewildering to lay-people. At the beginning of the pandemic we were putting everyone on ventilators and we found that was doing more harm than good and we stopped doing that and people were like "aha! They lied to us about ventilators!" No, we didn't know. It seemed like the right thing to do at the time, but as we gained more knowledge we found otherwise.

People talked about the rapidity with which the SARS-Cov-2 vaccine was developed, but it wasn't that rapid at all. The vaccine began development in the early 2000s with SARS-Cov-1. It wasn't at all like they started working on the COVID-19 vaccine in the summer of 2020 and developed it de novo at that point.

Some of the mitigation strategies in retrospect were unnecessary. But we could not act in April 2020 based on what we know in December 2024. We could only act in April 2020 based on what we knew in April 2020 which was almost nothing. The fascinating part is how political the debate became. I found myself being called "a bleeding heart liberal commie pinko".

There are still people who want to claim a benefit for HCQ and ivermectin despite there never having been any clinical trial data showing benefit. I was in a discussion the other day with a nurse practitioner whose counter-argument for HCQ was "where is the harm?" First, HCQ does have adverse effects and you're exposing people to excess adverse effects without possibility of benefit, and second, there was a massive run on HCQ causing a shortage which meant that people who actually needed it rheumatic diseases couldn't get it. The ivermectin hoax was started by a company that tried to corner the market on invermectin and drive up the price.
 
Donald Trump is a pathological liar and our President.....now Pres elect

We were just gaslighted for 4 years that Joe Biden is "sharp as a tack"

What we hear on the news is so slanted one way or the other it rarely is the actual story and media outlets.....not just social media.... are running retractions and losing lawsuits faster than I can ever remember.

There is a reason to not trust what you hear. There is an overall distrust in everything now and it is justifiable.
It didn't help that Joe Biden was saying before the election that he didn't trust the "Trump vaccine" and after the election he mandated it.
 
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