Ukraine. Ukraine. Ukraine.
- Thread starter Llcoolw
- Start date
60 days from now the strategy from the US will be to cooperate with and encourage the giving up however ever much of the Ukraine that Putin wants.
Ukraine should have been allowed to do this from the beginning.
No I'm not taking Putin's side. This isn't a yes/no white/black 1/0 thing. Saying anyone that doesn't blindly follow what the current admin does is taking Putin's side is intellectually lazy.
So there are reasons and if you act like there isn't it's naïve. I'm also not blind to the fact that Putin can use that to justify his own dictator goals but we have breaking promises made and pulling out of agreements since 1990. That also isn't a pro-Putin statement it's just saying what we did......we took a really big issue when they wanted to put their weapons in a sovereign nation 90 miles off the coast of Florida. Don't be surprised when doing the same thing upsets them.
Again guys this is happening now. I don't disagree that if we are going back the Ukraine in a conflict against a superior military we shouldn't have put gloves on them.....I see that and agree in large part. There is also an argument that all of this could have been avoided....and it has been for decades. I'm talking about what is happening and the timing of it. Putin wasn't gonna launch some super scary or nuclear weapon in the next 60 days. So we shouldn't have escalated this in a major way now. As I said the US' involvement in this about to change.....whether you agree with the direction it is going to go or not we all know it's going to change so doing this now is reckless. It is reckless by an admin that hasn't been able to accomplish anything on either front other than spending more and shooting more. Saying this is stupid now isn't a pro Putin statement....it's saying this move at this time is stupid. The US should not have gone from a throw money to throw missile strategy when the pres has one foot out the door and one in the grave.
But they weren't......so don't start now.
Again I don't disagree with if you're gonna fight....by god fight.....but this is stupid. If Trump did this on the way out yall would be crapping your collective pants....and justifiably so.
Introducing Donnyboy in the role of Zombie Neville Chamberlain
I wonder if anything has changed with weapons or anything since 1940......
Trump kinda did something very similar with his agreement with the Taliban in Afghanistan on his way out the door.
You're a surrender monkey.
Putin isn't gonna launch nuclear missiles on the US in the next 60 days.
His boy Trump is coming back to bow down to him and give him whatever he wants.
Yeah...
No one talks about how Trump got us out of treaties with Russia that coincidentally made their ability to wage this war much easier after he had been defeated by Biden.
Yes, it used to be an unwritten rule that politics stop at the waters edge. Not so now with the destroy every norm now crowd.
Ok.... so let's say that's the case and I don't disagree that is. Then what does this serve other than to get a bunch of folks that didn't have to be killed killed between now and then?
Ukraine is possibly going to be forced to a negotiating table by a lukewarm US. Are they better off at that table having taken and held Russian territory or are they better off having given that up?
mugatu
Ranger
Whose folks die in this instance? I see it as bringing the fight into Russian territory. If it's OK to fight it on Ukrainian soil, it is ok to fight it ok Russian soil. You have to make it painful for him or there is no incentive to walk away without getting what he wants.
It is very sad that Russian civilians may die from these attacks but Ukrainian civilians have been killed by the apartment building load for 1000 days. It's about time the Russian population has to deal with the actions of their government in some small sliver - and legal way. Ukraine will not target Russian civilian soft targets. They will target war capabilities.
War sucks! People dying from war sucks even more because it's never the leaders that suffer. I agree with what I think your sticking point is. But you can't just say why now from the Ukrainian side. Russia invaded their land and they need to be treated accordingly. Yes this took a long time but this also provides them some amount of time to use them as they see fit before Trump stops the supply and pushes for negotiations that Russia won't honor in the long run. The more success Ukraine has now the better foot they are on when peace talks start and lines get redrawn.
Why do you think they are going to gain ground? Russia has the non nuclear capability to turn any ground they take into gravel and hundreds of years of military history where they aren't afraid of casualties to take it back after everything in said ground is destroyed. If Russia doesn't respond in kind or with more force I'll be surprised......they have all their missiles like ones Ukraine just fired....Ukraine has a handful of ours. Dictators don't like being painted in corners. So do we have 60 days of more advanced weapons being fired to end at the exact same place we were three days ago? Seems very short sighted. I don't see Trump changing his mind on much.....so what is the win here if you are Ukraine? Ukraine cannot win this war.....there is not a scenario where that happens without a strong presence of foreign military directly engaged in combat. The only thing this does is push it closer to that point and that seems like one of the worst solutions to this to me.
1. It improves Ukraine's position with regards to deterring and destroying further attacks in this upcoming 60 days.
2. It encourages Ukraine's other allies to continue to support them and potentially provide more support with similar systems if it is shown that they are being used effectively.
3. It potentially improves their bargaining position should it come to that now that they have the offensive capacity to strike
3. It kills belligerent Russian soldiers and supplies that have been killing Ukrainian citizens and attacking Ukraine for the past 1000 days. That's a good thing in my book. If it also ends up killing Russian civilians....well war is hell...there has already been boatloads of Ukrainian civilians killed by the Russians.
You're a Neville Chamberlain kinda guy.
I'm more a Churchill kind of guy....."surely from this period of ten months this is the lesson: never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never-in nothing, great or small, large or petty — never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy."
It is what it is.
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It’s funny from the party that voted in the will never surrender guy are the ones that wanna tell everybody else to surrender.
mugatu
Ranger
Donny. Putin has been using weapons as fast as he can get them. He doesn't have stockpiles of current weapons any more, nor does he have millions of people. That's why North Koreans are shipping artillery, shells and now people to the line. He hasn't been holding back for 2 years waiting for an excuse to unleash all these magical weapons that would turn the war. He has old crap, some new decent stuff and a lot of conscripts.
Yes, Russia has no problem sacrificing thousands and thousands for a small hill. But, you make the cost of every hill and village as high as possible so the cost to the families is enough to start making them stand up and question.
You think firing bigger missiles further into Russia will slow down attacks in the next 60 days?
This does no good if Trump pulls the plug in a few days. Add up all the support from everyone else and it isn't what we do in one round of spending. Again not arguing the merits of pulling the plug just stating the obvious.
Their opponent is bigger, stronger, and more lethal. All this does is give more reason to use less restraint.
Russian isn't going to run out of canon fodder. Ukraine already is.
Keyboard Churchill.
If that is the case then we have been scared of nothing for 70 years. They aren't out of bullets. They just aren't using the biggest ones....and I don't mean nukes.... yet.
And the cost of hills has never bothered Russia.....ever.....in centuries of war.
They already have the ground. This is to prevent counterattack.
Why if the Russian military is so dominant as you keep claiming, why didn't they just take Ukraine and have this done as was originally planned?
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