if you're going to argue that Putin was Provoked and NATO is the one who provoked him don't waste your time
If that is your argument you have 100% fallen hook , line and sinker for Russian Propaganda
Ukraine. Ukraine. Ukraine.
- Thread starter Llcoolw
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If that is your argument you have 100% fallen hook , line and sinker for Russian Propaganda
Actually, I am trying to understand you. As clearly as possible.
“But, all of this nonsense that things we did or said made it so Russia HAD TO invade a neighbor is pure hogwash.”
That statement sure makes it seem exactly like : Russia attacked Ukraine with zero provocations from the US or US allied entities such as NATO or the EU.
That was meant for me not you.
No. They were not provoked. They were given a rope and they hung themselves with it.
Bold letters were bolded for a reason. They were bolded to avoid making it seem that way. There is an enormous difference between doing something that upsets another country and doing something that requires an attack on another nation. There is virtually NOTHING that requires taking over of other countries. If true, Japan, Germany, Iraq, Afghanistan etc would be American territory. You are vaguely and in my opinion stupidly defending naked aggression by a dictator because he didn’t like things. Not acceptable at all.
Please answer the question I asked if you are actually being genuine.
Why don’t you tell us exactly what we did that justifies the attack of other sovereign nations by Russia?
Hypothetically asking this in return.
If nuclear weapons didn’t exist, would this be worthy of a world war?
Nothing justifies it. That was your input that I’m defending Russia. I’m not. I pointed out exactly what they said. And then I pointed out they followed up on it. My own personal feelings are pretty clear, avoid war. The difference is I believe we played a part in this.
Hypothetically asking this in return.
If nuclear weapons didn’t exist, would this be worthy of a world war?
mugatu
Ranger
It's sounding like defending an abuser. If she didn't talk back he wouldn't have had to beat her.
Wow. I was posting “You are using the “short skirt” technique. If only she had not worn that short skirt and flirted at the bar she would not have gotten raped.
Nearly the same thought when I saw your post.
How many countries do you allow a brutal dictator to take before you stand up to him?
Chechnya?
Georgia?
Crimea?
Ukraine?
Latvia?
Estonia?
Poland?
Finland?
You draw a line and let me know when aggresive warfare is enough to concern you about the aggressor instead of looking back at decade old policy decisions and rumored quotes from America and the West to give him excuses.
Or, you can tell me you will blame us if he just takes Europe. I don’t know. You tell
me.
When I’m attacked. That would be the line to attack back. Before that, if there’s an opportunity to deescalate, I’ll take that.
I haven’t been attacked. It’s coming. I suspect these mysterious warehouse fires throughout Western Europe are acts of war.
If that happens, I’ll be singing kumbaya about killing Russians.
Feels iraqish almost. Being dragged into something I don’t want but once it’s starts, what choice do I have? I wouldn’t criticize the US if our kids are on the ground.
Does Ukraine have the right to self determination? Absolutely. And the worlds arms dealers can pick sides. Doesn’t mean I have to support it. And I love the freedom to be able to say these things. That’s not lost on me.
As for Russia, Europe, Asia, Africa, Indonesia, Australia and New Zealand there’s just not much I can do. I can’t even get other Americans to agree it’s bad we supply 40% of the weapons used. A higher percentage throughout Africa but there’s more war there.
Maybe Central or South America would concern me more and they do. Whilst we (Congress) debate the law of war during war, another interloper has arrived in Cuba.
Seems robot wars would be a better solution. Some day maybe.
So you would leave NATO and give Putin free rein to as much of Europe as he wants. As long as he has not yet attacked us?
The Telegraph recently revealed that the US is blocking British and European efforts to put in writing an “irreversible” path towards Nato membership for Ukraine.
Well that’s odd. A few posts ago you were saying this:
Would anyone like to see the video from 2014 with 2 senators telling Ukrainians we are going to help them kill Russians?
Wouldn’t we get to our goal that you seem to think exists of pulling Russia into wider war much quicker by assisting Ukraine into NATO quicker, not blocking it?
THIS MAY BE RUSSIA’S LAST WAR
How the Tide Has Turned in Ukraine
Until now, Ukraine has been fighting a bloody war against a numerically superior enemy with one hand tied behind its back. Despite the odds, it has done better than anyone (including me) expected. Ukraine’s offensive of last summer failed without air support. An overwhelming imbalance in artillery and artillery shells has pummeled Ukraine’s forces on the ground. Yet the “quick victory” promised to Russian soldiers in 2022 has transformed into a war of attrition, with wave after wave of Russian soldiers thrown into a meat-grinder of Ukrainian positions. The front has remained relatively static. Russia’s success in Kharkiv has proven short-lived, and now pockets of Russian soldiers are surrounded, surrendering to Ukrainian forces. “The entire 83rd Airborne Brigade is urgently withdrawn to the rear to restore combat capability,” one observer notes. “There are too many casualties, they can’t fight, there are too many 500s.”
In Russian military parlance, a “code 500” is a soldier who refuses to fight.
The survivors of an entire battalion — that’s hundreds of troops — have been trapped in a chemical plant in central Vovchansk for two weeks, while the Ukrainians have been reducing it to rubble. UK military intelligence has put the Russian casualty rate in Ukraine at 1200 a day in May, which it said was the highest since the start of the war. It also reported Russia’s total number of killed or wounded since it launched the invasion in February 2022 now stood at around half a million.
Stillwater Townie
Ranger
Interesting commentary. But I wonder how many conservative American Putin admirers are still saying Russia has the war about won and Ukraine is going to collapse any day soon, such as COL. Douglas Macgregor who thinks that in northeast Ukraine 300,000 Russian troops are poised to move rapidly upon Kiev. Ukraine will be firing what is left and near the end! And Scott Ritter keeps saying Russia will demolish Ukraine ever since the war started but not doing it for now because Putin doesn't want to suffer much bigger battle casualties than ever before. I doubt any outsiders know for sure how the Russian and Ukraine militaries are plotting strategy.
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At this point, I’m for anything that stops war. Really simple point I’ve been making. War exists today not because of mankind’s hatred for each other, it’s because of corporate profits.
Browsing the list:
Crazy Snakes War 1909. Oklahoma (still 20th century)
Mexican Border War 1910.
Little Race War (Cuba) 1912.
Occupation of Nicaragua 1912-33
Bluff War 1914 (Indian Wars)
Occupation of Veracruz. 1915
Occupation of Haiti 1915 - 1933
Occupation of DR 1916 - 1924
WWI - 1918 “The war to end all wars”
Russian Civil War 1917-24
Posey War 1923 (Indian Wars)
WW II 1939-45
Korea War 1950 - 1953
Vietnam if we count advisors 1955, if troops, 1965 - 1975
Laotian Civil War 1959 - 1975
Permesta Rebellion 1958 - 1961
Lebanon Crisis 1958
Bay of Pigs. 1961
Dominican Civil War. 1965 - 1968
Jesus Christ
Korean DMZ Conflict. 1966 - 1969
Cambodian Civil War. 1967 - 1975
Multinational Intervention in Lebanon. 80 - 82
Invasion of Grenada. 83
Bombing of Libya 86
Tanker War 87 - 88
Invasion of Panama 89 - 90
Gulf War One 90 - 91
Iraq No Fly Zone 91 - 03
Intervention Somali Civil War. 92 - 95
Bosnian and Croatian War 92 - 95
Intervention in Haiti 94 - 95
Kosovo War 98 - 99
There are 13 more conflicts the first 24 years of this century that we’re involved in.
I didn’t even know the half of it. Not until I typed it and read about it.
A hell of a lot of that list is about stopping one or another from spreading ideology somewhere else.
How’s it working so far? Seems like insanity to me.
What if they really threw a war and no one participated? The horrors.
How many more of these conflicts should we have these people until your satisfied? When they start listening to the rule of law? And who’s law should that be? WEF? NATO? UN? World Court or the Shanghai Cooperation Organization?
For those not reading through all this.
Never voted Trump. Never will.
Never voted Joe. Never will.
Never said Ukraine will lose.
I said Russia can play the long game.
Putin is a maniac that should be avoided.
Which btw, there were invasion plans for Cuba for almost the same reasons. Meddling in a Superpowers immediate neighborhood.
Except that time, a smarter person knew the importance of saving face and negotiation.
Sounds like something I’ll just have to continue to profit from.
Never said that. I’m saying they’ll drag it on. For profits. Until it’s no longer profitable. Huge problem playing these games. It works both ways.
Huge problem? Well…not for certain corporations. If you care about people you never will know, it’s a huge problem. What do you do if both apply?
And that video from 2014. Two senators telling a country now deemed TOO CORUPT FOR NATO seems to be an extremely damning piece of evidence that I’m correct that all of this is just business. Manufactured and could’ve been avoided on numerous occasions.
Coupled with a list of conflicts that starts with a war against Oklahomans. A list that must be examined carefully and clearly. A list that shows a lot death brought on by made up lies. A list of death based on power. I saw two invasions of other countries by the US for police actions.
Weird that somehow I should need to answer your question while you avoided mine.
If nuclear weapons didn’t exist, is Ukraine worthy of a World War?
Hell no. And those poor buggers should’ve checked that track record I just posted about how many we left behind once the profits stopped.
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mugatu
Ranger
So after Russia stole Crimea and half of the eastern states...
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