Ukraine. Ukraine. Ukraine.

What does that mean? Who is promising who peace? Russia does not and will not live up to international agreements. They never have.


You'd sue as Americans or other? It's not our place to try to push Ukraine into giving up its people and territory after an unprovoked invasion.

We have failed at getting the country united behind this cause. Largely because almost half of our country is listening to Russian propaganda and making opinions based on that. Instead of uniting to support a country in need being attacked by a country hostile to our own, people are listening to the hostile country. Ask anyone that deals in national defense on either side of the aisle and they will agree that we need to support Ukraine as much as possible.

One downside of our political situation is that it doesn't lend itself to longer term dedication and planning to important causes (not the word I want but I'm having trouble finding the right one).
I’ll answer the first question in the next quote.

But it’s that last sentence of yours that’ll save us a ton of time and history.

I completely agree. That was my problem from the very beginning. Our short sidednesses. And it’s because of our system. We can change any course and just blame it on any previous administration. Even more glaringly, we will never be unified like we were. Especially to these wars. If we cannot unify over the greatest dual passport holders in congress, no way we will over Ukraine.
Who is promising Russia peace and from whom is it be promised? Can you clarify what you mean by this?

I'm legit curious what you mean here. Let's pretend @Llcoolw is the president of the US: what do you propose we do?
I accept the nomination.

2012 If I’m the president, I direct our intelligence community to quit sending cables on the demographics of Crimea and to quit telegraphing our operatives within the Ukrainian Orange Revolution.

2014 If I’m the president, I’d out John McCain and Mrs. Graham, to the media, for being in Ukraine and telling their armed forces we are going to help them kill as many Russians as possible.

2021 March ( Almost a year prior to invasion ) Massive Russian forces started their buildup along the border and presented the West with the list of demands to deescalate the situation. I would’ve promised them that even if Ukraine joins NATO, we will give Russia all the necessary treaties they want to prove we don’t want war.

October 7 2023. If I was president, I would be very suspicious that a proxy of a proxy of Russia just found an excellent diversion to completely pull all of our attention and materials to another front. I’m not implying Russia knew exactly what the plan was but I also would not be surprised if they did, since Hamas has been invited to Moscow several times since the breech of Israel’s security.

Today. If I was the president today, I would have 2 choices to make.

1). Engage. Hit back 10x harder. Let loose all proxies and fighting elements not just in the Russian theatre but the ME, Africa and with our SE partners….I would start creating havoc in The South China Sea. Using all tools including cyber, financial, diplomatic, weapons and lots of lots of decoy drones to simulate multiple conflicts simultaneously. I would loose massive financial disruptions through ecoins, malware, sanctions, sabotage even counterfeiting monies to destabilize the big players.

Or

2). I would sue for peace. I would make it clear that Ukraine is 5x more important to us than Afghanistan. Therefore we will be there the next 100 years. I would pump war funds into their infrastructure and munition manufacturing. I would threaten to move NATO HQ into Ukraine. I would make it so costly for everyone that peace becomes a second thought automatically. Total war or nothing. Which is why I questioned it from the very beginning, if we’re not committed, then why fight? The half ass way so far has killed hundreds of thousands, wasted trillions, and is about to hand Russia a sure victory. I’m not even sure suing will work at this point, If I’m the president of the other country, I’m thinking like Netanyahu, “this will never happen again”.
 
I’ll answer the first question in the next quote.

But it’s that last sentence of yours that’ll save us a ton of time and history.

I completely agree. That was my problem from the very beginning. Our short sidednesses. And it’s because of our system. We can change any course and just blame it on any previous administration. Even more glaringly, we will never be unified like we were. Especially to these wars. If we cannot unify over the greatest dual passport holders in congress, no way we will over Ukraine.

I accept the nomination.

2012 If I’m the president, I direct our intelligence community to quit sending cables on the demographics of Crimea and to quit telegraphing our operatives within the Ukrainian Orange Revolution.

2014 If I’m the president, I’d out John McCain and Mrs. Graham, to the media, for being in Ukraine and telling their armed forces we are going to help them kill as many Russians as possible.

2021 March ( Almost a year prior to invasion ) Massive Russian forces started their buildup along the border and presented the West with the list of demands to deescalate the situation. I would’ve promised them that even if Ukraine joins NATO, we will give Russia all the necessary treaties they want to prove we don’t want war.

October 7 2023. If I was president, I would be very suspicious that a proxy of a proxy of Russia just found an excellent diversion to completely pull all of our attention and materials to another front. I’m not implying Russia knew exactly what the plan was but I also would not be surprised if they did, since Hamas has been invited to Moscow several times since the breech of Israel’s security.

Today. If I was the president today, I would have 2 choices to make.

1). Engage. Hit back 10x harder. Let loose all proxies and fighting elements not just in the Russian theatre but the ME, Africa and with our SE partners….I would start creating havoc in The South China Sea. Using all tools including cyber, financial, diplomatic, weapons and lots of lots of decoy drones to simulate multiple conflicts simultaneously. I would loose massive financial disruptions through ecoins, malware, sanctions, sabotage even counterfeiting monies to destabilize the big players.

Or

2). I would sue for peace. I would make it clear that Ukraine is 5x more important to us than Afghanistan. Therefore we will be there the next 100 years. I would pump war funds into their infrastructure and munition manufacturing. I would threaten to move NATO HQ into Ukraine. I would make it so costly for everyone that peace becomes a second thought automatically. Total war or nothing. Which is why I questioned it from the very beginning, if we’re not committed, then why fight? The half ass way so far has killed hundreds of thousands, wasted trillions, and is about to hand Russia a sure victory. I’m not even sure suing will work at this point, If I’m the president of the other country, I’m thinking like Netanyahu, “this will never happen again”.
Just curious why the allies of the invaded country would need to do all of this to avoid war but not the country that actually invaded another country?

I mean, poor little Russia with all of their nukes were so worried that they just had to invade yet another country. What exactly was the country that has invaded several countries afraid of from NATO that, at this point in its history, has invaded exactly ZERO countries?

I agree with you that it is time to stop pussyfooting around. Tell Russia that if Ukraine wishes, they will be a NATO country as of July 31st. If Russian troops are still committing war in thre country on that date, they will be forcibly removed from a NATO ally.

But, all of this nonsense that things we did or said made it so Russia HAD TO invade a neighbor is pure hogwash.
 
Just curious why the allies of the invaded country would need to do all of this to avoid war but not the country that actually invaded another country?

I mean, poor little Russia with all of their nukes were so worried that they just had to invade yet another country. What exactly was the country that has invaded several countries afraid of from NATO that, at this point in its history, has invaded exactly ZERO countries?

I agree with you that it is time to stop pussyfooting around. Tell Russia that if Ukraine wishes, they will be a NATO country as of July 31st. If Russian troops are still committing war in thre country on that date, they will be forcibly removed from a NATO ally.

But, all of this nonsense that things we did or said made it so Russia HAD TO invade a neighbor is pure hogwash.

I also had thought that Putin invading Georgia, Crimea, Donbas, and then finally Ukraine was to counter Western influence and NATO expansion in those countries. That was until the Tucker Carlson interview. Putin had a perfect opportunity to spread his message far and wide. Tucker even tried to get him to talk about NATO. But it was all about how historically that land and its people should be Russian. Because of something that happened in like 1347. I don't know. Condoleezza Rice might be right, we have to consider the fact that he's just a madman trying to restore some sort of made up "glory" for his "homeland." Kind of like someone else in history. Well, a lot of others....
 
I also had thought that Putin invading Georgia, Crimea, Donbas, and then finally Ukraine was to counter Western influence and NATO expansion in those countries. That was until the Tucker Carlson interview. Putin had a perfect opportunity to spread his message far and wide. Tucker even tried to get him to talk about NATO. But it was all about how historically that land and its people should be Russian. Because of something that happened in like 1347. I don't know. Condoleezza Rice might be right, we have to consider the fact that he's just a madman trying to restore some sort of made up "glory" for his "homeland." Kind of like someone else in history. Well, a lot of others....
That’s what I have always thought he wanted.
 
I also had thought that Putin invading Georgia, Crimea, Donbas, and then finally Ukraine was to counter Western influence and NATO expansion in those countries. That was until the Tucker Carlson interview. Putin had a perfect opportunity to spread his message far and wide. Tucker even tried to get him to talk about NATO. But it was all about how historically that land and its people should be Russian. Because of something that happened in like 1347. I don't know. Condoleezza Rice might be right, we have to consider the fact that he's just a madman trying to restore some sort of made up "glory" for his "homeland." Kind of like someone else in history. Well, a lot of others....
Speaking of former Russian puppet states

 
I’ll answer the first question in the next quote.

But it’s that last sentence of yours that’ll save us a ton of time and history.

I completely agree. That was my problem from the very beginning. Our short sidednesses. And it’s because of our system. We can change any course and just blame it on any previous administration. Even more glaringly, we will never be unified like we were. Especially to these wars. If we cannot unify over the greatest dual passport holders in congress, no way we will over Ukraine.

I accept the nomination.

2012 If I’m the president, I direct our intelligence community to quit sending cables on the demographics of Crimea and to quit telegraphing our operatives within the Ukrainian Orange Revolution.

2014 If I’m the president, I’d out John McCain and Mrs. Graham, to the media, for being in Ukraine and telling their armed forces we are going to help them kill as many Russians as possible.

2021 March ( Almost a year prior to invasion ) Massive Russian forces started their buildup along the border and presented the West with the list of demands to deescalate the situation. I would’ve promised them that even if Ukraine joins NATO, we will give Russia all the necessary treaties they want to prove we don’t want war.

October 7 2023. If I was president, I would be very suspicious that a proxy of a proxy of Russia just found an excellent diversion to completely pull all of our attention and materials to another front. I’m not implying Russia knew exactly what the plan was but I also would not be surprised if they did, since Hamas has been invited to Moscow several times since the breech of Israel’s security.

Today. If I was the president today, I would have 2 choices to make.

1). Engage. Hit back 10x harder. Let loose all proxies and fighting elements not just in the Russian theatre but the ME, Africa and with our SE partners….I would start creating havoc in The South China Sea. Using all tools including cyber, financial, diplomatic, weapons and lots of lots of decoy drones to simulate multiple conflicts simultaneously. I would loose massive financial disruptions through ecoins, malware, sanctions, sabotage even counterfeiting monies to destabilize the big players.

Or

2). I would sue for peace. I would make it clear that Ukraine is 5x more important to us than Afghanistan. Therefore we will be there the next 100 years. I would pump war funds into their infrastructure and munition manufacturing. I would threaten to move NATO HQ into Ukraine. I would make it so costly for everyone that peace becomes a second thought automatically. Total war or nothing. Which is why I questioned it from the very beginning, if we’re not committed, then why fight? The half ass way so far has killed hundreds of thousands, wasted trillions, and is about to hand Russia a sure victory. I’m not even sure suing will work at this point, If I’m the president of the other country, I’m thinking like Netanyahu, “this will never happen again”.



What do you think the words 'sue for peace' mean? It means begging someone to leave you alone. You say you'd sue for peace and then talk about all the things you'd do to strengthen Ukraine, which is the exact opposite of suing for peace. You then said you'd make it so costly that peace becomes a second thought automatically - which implies that war is the first thing on everyone's mind. Both your options would be significant escalations of the current situation.

I feel like I need crazy pills to follow along. None of what you said makes any sense.
 
Visitors witnessed a remarkable exchange during ceremonies in France commemorating the 80th anniversary of D-Day as Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy received a warm embrace from a World War II veteran.

The veteran told Zelenskyy, "You are a savior of the people," later adding, "I pray for you."

 

Russia has started sending female convicts to fight in Ukraine​


  • Female convicts are joining Russia's war efforts against Ukraine, per The New York Times.
  • Inmates were promised pardons and a monthly salary of $2,000 during recruitment.
  • But this is the first time they are being sent to the battlefield after signing on last year.
Russia's military is starting to tap into another source of manpower — female convicts.


A group of female convicts were released from a prison near St. Petersburg last month to fight in Ukraine, The New York Times reported on Monday, citing two former inmates it had spoken to.

According to The Times, roughly 10% of the prison's 400 inmates signed on with the military last year.

Military recruiters had offered the inmates one-year contracts as combat medics, frontline radio operators, and snipers, per The Times.

In addition to pardons, recruits would also receive a monthly salary of $2,000, The Times reported.

This is the first time enlisted female convicts are reported to have been sent to join the fighting in Ukraine. The female inmates had remained in prison even after signing on last year, per The Times' interviews with former and current inmates.

It's unclear if this release of female convicts is the start of a larger, nationwide program. Russia's defense ministry did not immediately respond to a request for comment from BI sent outside regular business hours.
 

Slovak Minister of Defense Labels Sending Jets to Ukraine as ‘Treason,’ Initiates Legal Action​

The Slovak Minister of Defense has charged his predecessor with committing “treason” by providing fighter jets to Ukraine, stating on June 12 that he has lodged a criminal complaint over the transfer.


Defense Minister Robert Kalinak condemned the previous actions, declaring, “Weakening the defense capabilities in such manner against the constitution can only be qualified as treason within our country’s political nomenclature,” as reported by the Czech publication iROZHLAS.

“Whether or not it’s a criminal offense according to law, it represents a betrayal of national ideals,” he added.

Kalinak targeted ex-Minister Jaroslav Nagy, who sent multiple MiG-29 jets to aid Ukraine in its struggle against the Russian invasion while he was in the role from March 2020 to May 2023.

Nagy deemed the jets, originating from the Soviet era, as “obsolete” for Slovakia, thus explaining the decision to assist Ukraine.

As Kalinak assumed office in October 2023, in the new cabinet under Prime Minister Robert Fico, it was clarified that Slovakia would halt international military assistance to Ukraine, although domestic commercial military sales remain permissible.
 

Putin warns West he's being 'pushed to point of no return' over World War III​


Vladimir Putin has issued another chilling warning to the West, saying its ‘selfishness and hypocrisy’ has led to a ‘dangerous turn of events’ and brought the world ‘close to a point of no return’.

Speaking to foreign ministry officials, the Kremlin leader said: ‘Calls to inflict a strategic defeat on Russia, which possesses the largest arsenal of nuclear weapons demonstrate the extreme recklessness of Western politicians.

‘They either do not understand the scale of the threat they are creating – or are simply obsessed with their own sense of impunity and exceptionalism.

‘Both can lead to tragedy.’

Putin also warned that plans by Western countries to provide Ukraine with loans using interest from Russian assets frozen abroad was theft and would not go unpunished.

‘Despite all the chicanery, theft will certainly remain theft. And it will not go unpunished,’ he said.

‘Now it is becoming obvious to all countries, companies (and) sovereign funds that their assets and reserves are far from safe in both the legal and economic sense of the word.

‘Anyone could be next in line for expropriation by the US and the West.’

Putin was speaking a day after G7 leaders agreed on an outline deal to provide $50 billion of loans for Ukraine using interest from Russian sovereign assets.

He told officials the ‘Western model’ of global security is collapsing and ‘needs to be essentially created anew’ – adding he is open to talks with everyone, including NATO.

‘All this requires us, together with our partners, with all interested countries, and there are many of them, to work out our own options for ensuring security in Eurasia, proposing them then for wider international discussion,’ he said.


‘We live on the same continent. No matter what happens, you cannot change the geography. We will have to coexist and work together one way or another.’

Putin also set out his prerequisites for peace talks with Ukraine.

‘Conditions are very simple,’ he said. ‘Ukrainian forces must be completely withdrawn from Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia oblasts.

‘[It’s] important to note, from all territories of these regions within their administrative borders which existed upon their accession to Ukraine.

‘As soon as Kyiv says they’re ready for such decision and start the real withdrawal of forces form these regions and officially declare rejection of plans to join NATO, from our side, immediately, literally the same minute, will come an order to stop the fire and start negotiations.

‘We will do it immediately. Obviously, we will guarantee the uninterrupted and safe withdrawal of Ukrainian forces.’
 
# LEGEND he LEGIT hit it with his machine gun fire.....see pic for bullet Holes LOL

Ukrainian soldier nicknamed Dr. Mom shoots down Russian cruise missile with machine gun​


"Shooting down an enemy missile with a machine gun is an extremely difficult task," said Serhiy, nicknamed Dr. Mom. "But responsibility and the understanding that the lives of many people depend on you make the impossible possible."


In civilian life, Serhiy worked as a medic, and now he is on duty as part of a mobile fire group, the Air Force added.

Dr. Mom recalled how, on the morning of June 12, his unit intercepted a Russian missile flying toward Kyiv. "After receiving the command standby, I immediately went to the position with my colleagues," he said. "We were informed over the radio that our target was close. A few seconds later, we saw an enemy missile flying towards Vasylkiv. Without hesitation, I took my machine gun and opened fire on the target. I was thinking only one thing – I have to hit it! When I fired a round from my machine gun, I saw that the missile began to deviate from its course and descend."

Serhiy didn't believe he had really shot down the enemy missile with his machine gun only after seeing its wreckage with his own eyes, the Air Force said.

Russia launched a massive attack on Ukraine with cruise missiles from strategic aviation aircraft and Shahed drones in the early hours of June 12. Most of them were aimed at Kyiv and Kyiv Oblast, and air defense forces shot down all enemy targets.

Monitoring groups reported that one of the alleged targets of the attack was Vasylkiv, Kyiv Oblast. During the night, all 24 Shaheds and 5 out of 6 missiles, except for the Iskander-M ballistic missile, were intercepted. Air defense operations were active in the Kyiv, Dnipropetrovsk, Zaporizhzhya, Poltava, Kharkiv, and Vinnytsia oblasts.

1718912329963.png
 
Just curious why the allies of the invaded country would need to do all of this to avoid war but not the country that actually invaded another country?

I mean, poor little Russia with all of their nukes were so worried that they just had to invade yet another country. What exactly was the country that has invaded several countries afraid of from NATO that, at this point in its history, has invaded exactly ZERO countries?

I agree with you that it is time to stop pussyfooting around. Tell Russia that if Ukraine wishes, they will be a NATO country as of July 31st. If Russian troops are still committing war in thre country on that date, they will be forcibly removed from a NATO ally.

But, all of this nonsense that things we did or said made it so Russia HAD TO invade a neighbor is pure hogwash.
Let me make sure I understand what you’re saying first.

Russia attacked Ukraine with zero provocations from the US or US allied entities such as NATO or the EU?
 
On the night of 26–27 February, 2014, Russian special forces seized and blocked the Supreme Council of Crimea and the Council of Ministers of Crimea. Russian forces purporting to be "Crimean militia" seized other administrative buildings, airports in Simferopol and Sevastopol, communications facilities, the mass media, etc. autonomy of Crimea 25 May 2014 – on the day of the presidential elections in Ukraine. At the same time, the presence of a quorum is doubtful, since the media were not allowed to attend the meeting.[16] The Russian saboteur Igor Girkin, on the air of one of the Russian TV programs, admitted that the deputies of the Verkhovna Rada of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea to vote for the decision on the separation of Crimea from Ukraine were forcibly driven away by the so-called "militia", and he personally was one of the commanders of this "militia". Soon, the date of the referendum was changed twice: first moved to 30 March, and then to 16 March. The wording of the question was also changed – instead of expanding autonomy, it was about joining Russia. In fact, both "alternative" questions were formulated in such a way that they excluded Crimea's belonging to Ukraine.[17] At the same time, according to Ukrainian legislation, since Ukraine is a unitary state, the issue of separating the region can only be resolved at a national referendum. Given this, even before the referendum was held, the leaders of Australia, Canada, the European Union, the United Kingdom, the United States and many others considered it illegal, and its results invalid.

On 27 February, unmarked Russian forces masquerading as "armed pro-Russian individuals" took over the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and Sevastopol, with Russian special forces[18] seizing the building of the Supreme Council of Crimea and the building of the Council of Ministers in Simferopol.[19] Russian flags were raised over these buildings[20] and barricades were erected outside them.[21] Russian forces also occupied several localities in Kherson Oblast on the Arabat Spit, which is geographically a part of Crimea.

Whilst the "little green men" were occupying the Crimean parliament building, the parliament held an emergency session.[22][23] It voted to terminate the Crimean government, and replace Prime Minister Anatolii Mohyliov with Sergey Aksyonov.[24] Aksyonov belonged to the Russian Unity party, which received 4% of the vote in the last election.[23] According to the Constitution of Ukraine, the Prime Minister of Crimea is appointed by the Supreme Council of Crimea in consultation with the President of Ukraine.[25][26] Both Aksyonov and speaker Vladimir Konstantinov stated that they viewed Viktor Yanukovych as the de jure president of Ukraine, through whom they were able to ask Russia for assistance.[27]

The parliament also voted to hold a referendum on greater autonomy set for 25 May. The troops had cut all of the building's communications, and took MPs' phones as they entered.[22][23] No independent journalists were allowed inside the building while the votes were taking place.[23] Some MPs said they were being threatened and that votes were cast for them and other MPs, even though they were not in the chamber.[23] Interfax-Ukraine reported "it is impossible to find out whether all the 64 members of the 100-member legislature who were registered as present at when the two decisions were voted on or whether someone else used the plastic voting cards of some of them" because due to the armed occupation of parliament it was unclear how many MPs were present.[28]

The head of parliament's information and analysis department, Olha Sulnikova, had phoned from inside the parliamentary building to journalists and had told them 61 of the registered 64 deputies had voted for the referendum resolution and 55 for the resolution to dismiss the government.[28] Donetsk People's Republic separatist Igor Girkin said in January 2015 that Crimean members of parliament were held at gunpoint, and were forced to support the annexation.[29] These actions were immediately declared illegal by the Ukrainian interim government.[30]

On the same day, more troops in unmarked uniforms, assisted this time by what appeared to be local Berkut riot police (as well as Russian troops from the 31st Separate Airborne Assault Brigade dressed in Berkut uniforms),[31] established security checkpoints on the Isthmus of Perekop and the Chonhar Peninsula, which separate Crimea from the Ukrainian mainland.[21][32][33][34][35] Within hours, Ukraine had been cut off from Crimea. Shortly afterwards, Ukrainian TV channels became unavailable for Crimean viewers, and some of them were replaced with Russian stations.

On 1 March 2014, Aksyonov said that he would exercise control of all Ukrainian military and security installations on the peninsula. He also asked Putin for "assistance in ensuring peace and tranquillity" in Crimea.[36] Putin promptly received authorisation from the Federation Council of Russia for a Russian military intervention in Ukraine until the "political-social situation in the country is normalized".[37][38] Putin's swift manoeuvre prompted protests of some Russian intelligentsia and demonstrations in Moscow against a Russian military campaign in Crimea. By 2 March, Russian troops moving from the country's naval base in Sevastopol and reinforced by troops, armour, and helicopters from mainland Russia exercised complete control over the Crimean Peninsula.[39][40][41] Russian troops operated in Crimea without insignia. On 3 March they blockaded Southern Naval Base.

On 4 March, Ukrainian General Staff said there were units of the 18th Motor Rifle Brigade, 31st Air Assault Brigade and 22nd Spetsnaz Brigade deployed and operating in Crimea, instead of Russian Black Sea Fleet personnel, which violated international agreements signed by Ukraine and Russia.[42][43] At a press conference on the same day, Russian president Vladimir Putin said that Russia had no plans to annex Crimea.[44] He also said that it had no plans to invade Ukraine, but that it might intervene if Russians in Ukraine were threatened.[44] This was part of a pattern of public denials of the ongoing Russian military operation.[44]

Numerous media reports and statements by the Ukrainian and foreign governments noted the identity of the unmarked troops as Russian soldiers, but Russian officials concealed the identity of their forces, claiming they were local "self-defence" units over whom they had no authority.[citation needed] As late as 17 April, Russian foreign minister Sergey Lavrov said that there were no "excessive Russian troops" in Ukraine.[45] At the same press conference, Putin said of the peninsula that "only citizens themselves, in conditions of free expression of will and their security can determine their future".[46] Putin later acknowledged that he had ordered "work to bring Crimea back into Russia" as early as February.[47] He also acknowledged that in early March there were "secret opinion polls" held in Crimea, which, according to him, reported overwhelming popular support for Crimea's incorporation into Russia.[48]

Russia eventually admitted its troops' presence.[49] Defence Minister Sergey Shoygu said the country's military actions in Crimea were undertaken by forces of the Black Sea Fleet and were justified by "threat to lives of Crimean civilians" and danger of "takeover of Russian military infrastructure by extremists".[50][better source needed] Ukraine complained that by increasing its troop presence in Crimea, Russia violated the agreement under which it headquartered its Black Sea Fleet in Sevastopol[51] and violated the country's sovereignty.[52] The United States and United Kingdom accused Russia of breaking the terms of the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances, by which Russia, the US, and the UK had reaffirmed their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.[53] The Russian government said the Budapest Memorandum[54] did not apply due to "circumstances resulting from the action of internal political or socio-economic factors".[55] In March 2015, retired Russian Admiral Igor Kasatonov [ru] stated that according to his information the Russian troop deployment in Crimea included six helicopter landings and three landings of an IL-76 with 500 people.[56][57]
 
The events in Kyiv that ousted Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych on 22 February 2014 sparked pro-Russian demonstrations in Crimea against the incoming Ukrainian government. At the same time, Russian president Vladimir Putin discussed Ukrainian events with security chiefs, remarking that "we must start working on returning Crimea to Russia". On 27 February, Russian special forces without insignia[34] seized strategic sites across Crimea.[35][36] Although Russia at first denied its military involvement,[37] Putin later admitted that troops were deployed to "stand behind Crimea's self-defence forces".[38] As Russian troops occupied Crimea's parliament, it dismissed the Crimean government, installed the pro-Russian Aksyonov government, and announced a referendum on Crimea's status. The referendum was held under Russian occupation and, according to the Russian-installed authorities, the result was overwhelmingly in favor of joining Russia. The next day, 17 March 2014, Crimea's authorities declared independence and requested to join Russia.[39][40] Russia formally incorporated Crimea on 18 March 2014 as the Republic of Crimea and federal city of Sevastopol.[41][38] Following the annexation,[42] Russia built up its military presence on the peninsula and warned against any outside intervention.[43]

Ukraine and many other countries condemned the annexation and consider it to be a violation of international law and Russian agreements safeguarding the territorial integrity of Ukraine. The annexation led to the other members of the G8 suspending Russia from the group[44] and introducing sanctions. The United Nations General Assembly also rejected the referendum and annexation, adopting a resolution affirming the "territorial integrity of Ukraine within its internationally recognised borders",[45][46] and referring to the Russian action as a "temporary occupation".[47]

The Russian government opposes the "annexation" label, with Putin defending the referendum as complying with the principle of the self-determination of peoples.[48][49]
 
Russia attacked and annexed the Ukrainian region of Crimea in 2014 which started all this

Unprovoked
That’s why these discussions are so hard.
You can make a simple claim as if 2014 was the date you say it started.

Google time line of the conflict and it starts way earlier. But I do agree, it’s when both sides go hot.

Hear of the The 2014 Euromaidan protests?

Go back further and we’ll see that Russia got irritated by western powers influencing their neighbors…in the

Orange Revolution

10 years prior in 05’. Guess who the foreign electoral monitors were.


We have way too short memories here or maybe tribalism makes us forget, or maybe it’s the administration we didn’t like and checked out during their terms. I don’t know.

Would anyone like to see the video from 2014 with 2 senators telling Ukrainians we are going to help them kill Russians?

Or how about a video of Joe Biden himself saying in 1999 that anymore westward expansion of NATO will kick off a war with Russia? (Look on the map to see how far they’ve come) I mean, I’m not the only person to point that theory out. He’s sort of the president of the US.
On the night of 26–27 February, 2014, Russian special forces seized and blocked the Supreme Council of Crimea and the Council of Ministers of Crimea. Russian forces purporting to be "Crimean militia" seized other administrative buildings, airports in Simferopol and Sevastopol, communications facilities, the mass media, etc. autonomy of Crimea 25 May 2014 – on the day of the presidential elections in Ukraine. At the same time, the presence of a quorum is doubtful, since the media were not allowed to attend the meeting.[16] The Russian saboteur Igor Girkin, on the air of one of the Russian TV programs, admitted that the deputies of the Verkhovna Rada of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea to vote for the decision on the separation of Crimea from Ukraine were forcibly driven away by the so-called "militia", and he personally was one of the commanders of this "militia". Soon, the date of the referendum was changed twice: first moved to 30 March, and then to 16 March. The wording of the question was also changed – instead of expanding autonomy, it was about joining Russia. In fact, both "alternative" questions were formulated in such a way that they excluded Crimea's belonging to Ukraine.[17] At the same time, according to Ukrainian legislation, since Ukraine is a unitary state, the issue of separating the region can only be resolved at a national referendum. Given this, even before the referendum was held, the leaders of Australia, Canada, the European Union, the United Kingdom, the United States and many others considered it illegal, and its results invalid.

On 27 February, unmarked Russian forces masquerading as "armed pro-Russian individuals" took over the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and Sevastopol, with Russian special forces[18] seizing the building of the Supreme Council of Crimea and the building of the Council of Ministers in Simferopol.[19] Russian flags were raised over these buildings[20] and barricades were erected outside them.[21] Russian forces also occupied several localities in Kherson Oblast on the Arabat Spit, which is geographically a part of Crimea.

Whilst the "little green men" were occupying the Crimean parliament building, the parliament held an emergency session.[22][23] It voted to terminate the Crimean government, and replace Prime Minister Anatolii Mohyliov with Sergey Aksyonov.[24] Aksyonov belonged to the Russian Unity party, which received 4% of the vote in the last election.[23] According to the Constitution of Ukraine, the Prime Minister of Crimea is appointed by the Supreme Council of Crimea in consultation with the President of Ukraine.[25][26] Both Aksyonov and speaker Vladimir Konstantinov stated that they viewed Viktor Yanukovych as the de jure president of Ukraine, through whom they were able to ask Russia for assistance.[27]

The parliament also voted to hold a referendum on greater autonomy set for 25 May. The troops had cut all of the building's communications, and took MPs' phones as they entered.[22][23] No independent journalists were allowed inside the building while the votes were taking place.[23] Some MPs said they were being threatened and that votes were cast for them and other MPs, even though they were not in the chamber.[23] Interfax-Ukraine reported "it is impossible to find out whether all the 64 members of the 100-member legislature who were registered as present at when the two decisions were voted on or whether someone else used the plastic voting cards of some of them" because due to the armed occupation of parliament it was unclear how many MPs were present.[28]

The head of parliament's information and analysis department, Olha Sulnikova, had phoned from inside the parliamentary building to journalists and had told them 61 of the registered 64 deputies had voted for the referendum resolution and 55 for the resolution to dismiss the government.[28] Donetsk People's Republic separatist Igor Girkin said in January 2015 that Crimean members of parliament were held at gunpoint, and were forced to support the annexation.[29] These actions were immediately declared illegal by the Ukrainian interim government.[30]

On the same day, more troops in unmarked uniforms, assisted this time by what appeared to be local Berkut riot police (as well as Russian troops from the 31st Separate Airborne Assault Brigade dressed in Berkut uniforms),[31] established security checkpoints on the Isthmus of Perekop and the Chonhar Peninsula, which separate Crimea from the Ukrainian mainland.[21][32][33][34][35] Within hours, Ukraine had been cut off from Crimea. Shortly afterwards, Ukrainian TV channels became unavailable for Crimean viewers, and some of them were replaced with Russian stations.

On 1 March 2014, Aksyonov said that he would exercise control of all Ukrainian military and security installations on the peninsula. He also asked Putin for "assistance in ensuring peace and tranquillity" in Crimea.[36] Putin promptly received authorisation from the Federation Council of Russia for a Russian military intervention in Ukraine until the "political-social situation in the country is normalized".[37][38] Putin's swift manoeuvre prompted protests of some Russian intelligentsia and demonstrations in Moscow against a Russian military campaign in Crimea. By 2 March, Russian troops moving from the country's naval base in Sevastopol and reinforced by troops, armour, and helicopters from mainland Russia exercised complete control over the Crimean Peninsula.[39][40][41] Russian troops operated in Crimea without insignia. On 3 March they blockaded Southern Naval Base.

On 4 March, Ukrainian General Staff said there were units of the 18th Motor Rifle Brigade, 31st Air Assault Brigade and 22nd Spetsnaz Brigade deployed and operating in Crimea, instead of Russian Black Sea Fleet personnel, which violated international agreements signed by Ukraine and Russia.[42][43] At a press conference on the same day, Russian president Vladimir Putin said that Russia had no plans to annex Crimea.[44] He also said that it had no plans to invade Ukraine, but that it might intervene if Russians in Ukraine were threatened.[44] This was part of a pattern of public denials of the ongoing Russian military operation.[44]

Numerous media reports and statements by the Ukrainian and foreign governments noted the identity of the unmarked troops as Russian soldiers, but Russian officials concealed the identity of their forces, claiming they were local "self-defence" units over whom they had no authority.[citation needed] As late as 17 April, Russian foreign minister Sergey Lavrov said that there were no "excessive Russian troops" in Ukraine.[45] At the same press conference, Putin said of the peninsula that "only citizens themselves, in conditions of free expression of will and their security can determine their future".[46] Putin later acknowledged that he had ordered "work to bring Crimea back into Russia" as early as February.[47] He also acknowledged that in early March there were "secret opinion polls" held in Crimea, which, according to him, reported overwhelming popular support for Crimea's incorporation into Russia.[48]

Russia eventually admitted its troops' presence.[49] Defence Minister Sergey Shoygu said the country's military actions in Crimea were undertaken by forces of the Black Sea Fleet and were justified by "threat to lives of Crimean civilians" and danger of "takeover of Russian military infrastructure by extremists".[50][better source needed] Ukraine complained that by increasing its troop presence in Crimea, Russia violated the agreement under which it headquartered its Black Sea Fleet in Sevastopol[51] and violated the country's sovereignty.[52] The United States and United Kingdom accused Russia of breaking the terms of the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances, by which Russia, the US, and the UK had reaffirmed their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.[53] The Russian government said the Budapest Memorandum[54] did not apply due to "circumstances resulting from the action of internal political or socio-economic factors".[55] In March 2015, retired Russian Admiral Igor Kasatonov [ru] stated that according to his information the Russian troop deployment in Crimea included six helicopter landings and three landings of an IL-76 with 500 people.[56][57]
Then you must see this was planned out. Not organic. A plan in response to something real or imagined. I believe Putin wants the old empire in tact. If he can’t have Ukraine, that’s one thing, but he’ll never give up the keys to the front door.

If it was imaginary, why not implore with him? Show him by reducing military postures along the iron curtain remnants? Kennedy did it with Kruchev.

If it’s real, well…here we are. The video below is all too real and turns out, Russia wants it too.

Change of topic, kinda

Keep in mind, this is from India


Turns out, it was about resources.

Which changes my views.

What do you think the words 'sue for peace' mean? It means begging someone to leave you alone. You say you'd sue for peace and then talk about all the things you'd do to strengthen Ukraine, which is the exact opposite of suing for peace. You then said you'd make it so costly that peace becomes a second thought automatically - which implies that war is the first thing on everyone's mind. Both your options would be significant escalations of the current situation.

I feel like I need crazy pills to follow along. None of what you said makes any sense.
Sue for peace was a colloquial term.



My entire point is that war is obsolete. It’s silly in this day and age. “They” are not some group of people we feel alien to like the propaganda of WWII making the Japanese seem nonhuman.

We now have the technology to talk to each other directly. For instance, in Turkey, they hate the GOP for trying to bring up the genocide of the Armenians in congress for a resolution. I know because I play poker with several Turks. Does that mean all Turks? Of course not, but it was headline fodder for an entire week there. I would’ve never known otherwise.

So in suing for peace, there’s 2 paths. Trying to avoid defeat or to win with grace. To avoid defeat, you saw my response. However, with such short term nearsightedness in every administration, it’s starting to shake out, that the two dictators we are up against (and drove into each other’s arms) are starting to win.


Maybe more weapons, intelligence and fresh lives will take Ukraine to victory. Whatever that looks like.


Btw,

United States number one export is obvious but did you know compared to the next largest exporter which is France, the US is 400% more?

So there’s that I guess.
 
Let me make sure I understand what you’re saying first.

Russia attacked Ukraine with zero provocations from the US or US allied entities such as NATO or the EU?

You are better than this BS strawman argument. You aren’t trying to understand, you are trying to defend Putin.

I wrote very clearly what I think. In international diplomacy, countries do things that piss other countries off all the time. That does not justify an attack of a sovereign nation.

Why don’t you tell us exactly what we did that justifies the attack of other sovereign nations by Russia?
 
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