2024 Presidential Election

[mugatu]

This is where we are at. If Trump loses it's going to be the election was stolen and conspiracy theories. If Trump wins, I don't think there will be cities on fire, but that's within the realm of possibility, but there will definitely be protests nationwide. When you have both sides painting the other as the enemy in such dramatic terms there is no way to reconcile afterwards.

If Trump wins I see Kamala doing the opposite of what Trump did in 2020. There will still be legal checks through the courts, but I am very confident that she will call for people to be peaceful every chance she gets and she will try to calm the situation.

 

[RxCowboy]

As if this isn’t sad and infuriating enough, those who only care about the pre-born will now dig up everything they can about this poor dead teenager to lie and say that this is all her fault and the law did nothing to harm her and stupid people make stupid decisions yada, yada yada.

The federal government needs to quit pussyfooting around this crap. EMTALA has severe penalties and widespread investigation ability once the report is made. They must fine these hospitals doing this crap as money is the only thing that matters to them. Dead teens don’t matter unless it costs them a few million. And, needs to be federal fines not malpractice.

From the article:
“I know it sounds selfish, and God knows I would rather have both of them, but if I had to choose,” Fails said, “I would have chosen my daughter.”

I am a healthcare ethics consultant for the Saginaw VA and am working on certification through the American Society of Bioethics and Humanities. For people who read this article and may not understand it, the ethical principle in view here is "patient autonomy". That is, patients who have the capacity to make decisions have the right to make decisions about their own medical care.* In this case where we are talking about a septic patient who may not be able to make decisions for herself, those decisions then fall to a surrogate decision maker which is usually the next of kin. In the absence of a spouse this very well could be her mother. Ideally surrogate decision makers make decisions based on the wishes and values of the patient, but this is not always possible because those are not always known. Then it becomes "best interests". It is a terrible choice to have to face, to decide between the life of the baby and the life of the mother, but no one, and I mean no one, should fault her for the choice that she would make, because it is hers to make.

*Healthcare providers have a corresponding duty to involve patients in shared decision making. The days of "doctor knows best" and "doctor says it and that is the way it is" or medical paternalism are pretty much over, or at least they should be. The Texas law could be seen, from an ethical standpoint, as codification of medical paternalism.

 

[Vakarian74]

You are definitely not wrong.




This is where we are at. If Trump loses it's going to be the election was stolen and conspiracy theories. If Trump wins, I don't think there will be cities on fire, but that's within the realm of possibility, but there will definitely be protests nationwide. When you have both sides painting the other as the enemy in such dramatic terms there is no way to reconcile afterwards.

The good part if... when... Trump loses we will finally be done with him. I'm not sure we could take yet another Trump candidacy and further deterioration of our politics. At some point we have to begin to heal.

Please stop the false equivalence. One side is calling for Liz Chaney to have nine barrels pointed at her head, that those that don’t agree with that candidate are the enemy of this nation and should be taken out, saying women should do what their husbands tell them, that they wish they had hitlers generals and that if said candidate wins our economy is going to crash and Americans a just need to accept it. The other side uses those points and says believe what they are saying and you all act like they are the same. It utter BS and I’m effing tired of it.

 

[steross]

*Healthcare providers have a corresponding duty to involve patients in shared decision making. The days of "doctor knows best" and "doctor says it and that is the way it is" or medical paternalism are pretty much over, or at least they should be. The Texas law could be seen, from an ethical standpoint, as codification of medical paternalism.

Getting a little off topic but certainly on this subject I agree. With end of life care, not so much.

It is horribly unfair that we call a family member at 3:00am and say, "While grandma does have lung cancer and her kidneys are not very good, she is still alive and in critical condition. We need to know if you want us to put her on a ventilator and in the ICU to see if we can save her from this horrible stroke she just suffered, or if you want us to just keep her comfortable?"

These are difficult and complex decisions when you do have a lot of medical knowledge. But, I find that the majority of the time even when they know that the outcome will be poor, nobody wants to be the one to have to say "We didn't do all we could to save grandma" when that really isn't the decision being made.

 

[RxCowboy]

Please stop the false equivalence. One side is calling for Liz Chaney to have nine barrels pointed at her head, that those that don’t agree with that candidate are the enemy of this nation and should be taken out, saying women should do what their husbands tell them, that they wish they had hitlers generals and that if said candidate wins our economy is going to crash and Americans a just need to accept it. The other side uses those points and says believe what they are saying and you all act like they are the same. It utter BS and I’m effing tired of it.

I wasn't talking about the candidates. My thoughts and feelings about Trump are well known here. I was talking about the response of the electorate. From the Trumpians there will be the election was stolen and conspiracy theories and there might very well be another insurrection. From the left there will be protests. I highly doubt that cities will burn, but I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility. Do you? But how do we reconcile? Is there a path to it? Because if there is then I don't see it.

 

[RxCowboy]

Getting a little off topic but certainly on this subject I agree. With end of life care, not so much.

It is horribly unfair that we call a family member at 3:00am and say, "While grandma does have lung cancer and her kidneys are not very good, she is still alive and in critical condition. We need to know if you want us to put her on a ventilator and in the ICU to see if we can save her from this horrible stroke she just suffered, or if you want us to just keep her comfortable?"

These are difficult and complex decisions when you do have a lot of medical knowledge. But, I find that the majority of the time even when they know that the outcome will be poor, nobody wants to be the one to have to say "We didn't do all we could to save grandma" when that really isn't the decision being made.

No, there are some situations where providers have to act in the patient's best interests and there isn't much time for deliberation or there aren't many choices. That isn't paternalism.

I gave a grand rounds on medical futility in August. I used the hepatocarcinoma case. It was really good.

 

[steross]

You are definitely not wrong.




This is where we are at. If Trump loses it's going to be the election was stolen and conspiracy theories. If Trump wins, I don't think there will be cities on fire, but that's within the realm of possibility, but there will definitely be protests nationwide. When you have both sides painting the other as the enemy in such dramatic terms there is no way to reconcile afterwards.

The good part if... when... Trump loses we will finally be done with him. I'm not sure we could take yet another Trump candidacy and further deterioration of our politics. At some point we have to begin to heal.

Question for you. Sure, it is always easy to point to the very edge of political extremes and say, "Look how bad they are."

But, you are basically making an equivalence between the right falsely claiming the election was stolen and the violence that might arise from that and the left protesting and the violence that might arise if the protests turn violent.

Can you point to any leadership on the left making statements to foment protest and violence? Has Harris or anyone else prominent in the dem leadership said, "If Trump wins, don't accept it, take it to the streets!"
Certainly there are thousands of statements by Trump, Trump's team, republican senators and representatives calling the election fradulent even before it happens.

That is the difference. Bad actors on the left are the bad actors of the left. The bad actors of the right are the leadership of the right.

 

[GOGETUMPOKE]

Please stop the false equivalence. One side is calling for Liz Chaney to have nine barrels pointed at her head, that those that don’t agree with that candidate are the enemy of this nation and should be taken out, saying women should do what their husbands tell them, that they wish they had hitlers generals and that if said candidate wins our economy is going to crash and Americans a just need to accept it. The other side uses those points and says believe what they are saying and you all act like they are the same. It utter BS and I’m effing tired of it.

 

[KK10]

View attachment 8120

He may not be the right person to call someone else out on that particular subject.

 

[Polds4OSU]

Trump advisor says the goal of Trump's Social Security policy is to "force” retired Americans “back into the workforce”

Kamala HQ (@kamalahq) on Threads

Trump advisor says the goal of Trump's Social Security policy is to "force” retired Americans “back into the workforce”

www.threads.net

 

[Polds4OSU]

Trump: "Suburban women. The suburbs are under attack right now. When you're home in your house alone and you have this monster that got out of prison and he's got 6 charges of murdering 6 different people, I think you'd rather have Trump."

Aaron Rupar (@aaron.rupar) on Threads

Trump: "Suburban women. The suburbs are under attack right now. When you're home in your house alone and you have this monster that got out of prison and he's got 6 charges of murdering 6 different people, I think you'd rather have Trump."

www.threads.net

 

[RxCowboy]

Question for you. Sure, it is always easy to point to the very edge of political extremes and say, "Look how bad they are."

But, you are basically making an equivalence between the right falsely claiming the election was stolen and the violence that might arise from that and the left protesting and the violence that might arise if the protests turn violent.

Can you point to any leadership on the left making statements to foment protest and violence? Has Harris or anyone else prominent in the dem leadership said, "If Trump wins, don't accept it, take it to the streets!"
Certainly there are thousands of statements by Trump, Trump's team, republican senators and representatives calling the election fradulent even before it happens.

That is the difference. Bad actors on the left are the bad actors of the left. The bad actors of the right are the leadership of the right.

I'm no longer a Republican because of Trump and Jan 6.

Just the other day I posted about the Trump rally at MSG, the Musk hat, Hitler generals and 2+2 really does equal 4.

I'm made posts critical of the right-wing authoritarian politics and the American evangelical church.

I posted I think yesterday that though we hadn't talked about it specifically I was sure my daughter, who lives in Georgia, a swing state, was going to vote for Harris.

I made a post critical of the Trumpian who pitched a hissy fit over his hat at the polling place.

I posted that I wanted Trump and MAGA purged from the Republican party.

I posted about how on Fox they've talked about how "Trump hasn't become more like the Republican Party, the Republican Party has become more like Trump" and that there are no grounding principles left among Republicans.

I can't think of a single post I've made critical of Harris except when I said she has not given us specifics and has been vague about her platform and has done nothing to make me want to vote for her.

So, why are my words being so carefully weighed measured here and a false equivalence claimed? I hate Trump and want him gone. I think I've been pretty clear about that. I don't hate Harris and want her gone. Do I need to start every post with a disclaimer?

 

[steross]

I'm no longer a Republican because of Trump and Jan 6.

Just the other day I posted about the Trump rally at MSG, the Musk hat, Hitler generals and 2+2 really does equal 4.

I'm made posts critical of the right-wing authoritarian politics and the American evangelical church.

I posted I think yesterday that though we hadn't talked about it specifically I was sure my daughter, who lives in Georgia, a swing state, was going to vote for Harris.

I made a post critical of the Trumpian who pitched a hissy fit over his hat at the polling place.

I posted that I wanted Trump and MAGA purged from the Republican party.

I posted about how on Fox they've talked about how "Trump hasn't become more like the Republican Party, the Republican Party has become more like Trump" and that there are no grounding principles left among Republicans.

I can't think of a single post I've made critical of Harris except when I said she has not given us specifics and has been vague about her platform and has done nothing to make me want to vote for her.

So, why are my words being so carefully weighed measured here and a false equivalence claimed? I hate Trump and want him gone. I think I've been pretty clear about that. I don't hate Harris and want her gone. Do I need to start every post with a disclaimer?

Because you mentioned violence then said both sides. I was responding to that post not your “body of work” on the subject. You answered my question. It wasn’t a gotcha.

In my mind it is just sad what the Republican Party has become. I feel like there are bad fringes on the left- the antifa and anarchist side. But, I feel like the republican leadership has brought out the bad side of the right. They aren’t dealing with an anti-immigrant and/or anti-diversity base. They are creating it.

 

[Polds4OSU]

Trump ties to mock Vice President Harris: “You ever hear her? She says ‘we wanna be a unified country. We wanna be a unified country.’ She said the other day we wanna be unified. We don't want to say bad things”

Kamala HQ (@kamalahq) on Threads

Trump ties to mock Vice President Harris: “You ever hear her? She says ‘we wanna be a unified country. We wanna be a unified country.’ She said the other day we wanna be unified. We don't want to say bad things”

www.threads.net

 

[Polds4OSU]

 

[RxCowboy]

Because you mentioned violence then said both sides. I was responding to that post not your “body of work” on the subject. You answered my question. It wasn’t a gotcha.

In my mind it is just sad what the Republican Party has become. I feel like there are bad fringes on the left- the antifa and anarchist side. But, I feel like the republican leadership has brought out the bad side of the right. They aren’t dealing with an anti-immigrant and/or anti-diversity base. They are creating it.

The Republican leadership... "The party has become more like Trump" I think pretty much says it all.

But that wasn't the point of my post, my question was about reconciliation. What kind of world do we wake up to Wednesday morning? How do we live with each other after this? How do people become friends and neighbors again? Is it even possible?

 

[mugatu]

Trump ties to mock Vice President Harris: “You ever hear her? She says ‘we wanna be a unified country. We wanna be a unified country.’ She said the other day we wanna be unified. We don't want to say bad things”

Kamala HQ (@kamalahq) on Threads

Trump ties to mock Vice President Harris: “You ever hear her? She says ‘we wanna be a unified country. We wanna be a unified country.’ She said the other day we wanna be unified. We don't want to say bad things”

www.threads.net

We DO want a unified country... anyone shpuld want their country to be unified instead of divided. We would be stronger if not fighting ourselves.

 

[Stillwaterman]

The Republican leadership... "The party has become more like Trump" I think pretty much says it all.

But that wasn't the point of my post, my question was about reconciliation. What kind of world do we wake up to Wednesday morning? How do we live with each other after this? How do people become friends and neighbors again? Is it even possible?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I plan on Wednesday being like any day before it.

 

[TheMonkey]

You could have been much more succinct:

That’s not his jam.

 

[TheMonkey]

Oh, he's definitely going to be a sore loser. If he loses. I also predict cities on fire if he wins. Which he probably will. Either way, I predict pandemonium. Brace yourselves.

Yeah, I’m sure Trump will just be a sore loser. He’s not prone to set folks into action on his behalf. He’ll probably whine a bit and move on.

But liberals? They’ll surely burn down cities over the election, because you predicted it.