US continues to go backward...

[CowboyJD]

I always hear the Russia lovers (not saying you are, but they do) call Ukraine "corrupt". But, I've never seen data or an article or anything showing specifically that it is corrupt. Like, what corruption? An example?

Who do you think the last leader that Putin would have feared would be?

How Deep Does Corruption Run in Ukraine?

Ukraine has made significant progress fighting graft, but its record continues to haunt it.

foreignpolicy.com

If you read GGP’s article he cited….you’ll see that Ukraine has making great strides in anti-corruption measures in the past decade.

The article is actually a nuanced, balanced evaluation…..that really doesn’t support GGP’s proposition.

 

[steross]

How Deep Does Corruption Run in Ukraine?

Ukraine has made significant progress fighting graft, but its record continues to haunt it.

foreignpolicy.com

If you read GGP’s article he cited….you’ll see that Ukraine has making great strides in anti-corruption measures in the past decade.

The article is actually a nuanced, balanced evaluation…..that really doesn’t support GGP’s proposition.

Agreed. Very enlightening article.

 

[GOGETUMPOKE]

How Deep Does Corruption Run in Ukraine?

Ukraine has made significant progress fighting graft, but its record continues to haunt it.

foreignpolicy.com

If you read GGP’s article he cited….you’ll see that Ukraine has making great strides in anti-corruption measures in the past decade.

The article is actually a nuanced, balanced evaluation…..that really doesn’t support GGP’s proposition.

lol . It ranks them 104th out of 180 countries in corruption with 1 being the least corrupt and cites numerous cases of corruption totaling billions of dollars which is what Steross asked for. Only in this place could you find people trying to make the argument that Ukraine isn’t corrupt. It’s hilariously ignorant.

 

[steross]

In response to your obvious bait I will say that in my opinion Putin wouldn’t have invaded if Trump was in office.

Good article.

My "bait" is because it makes no sense to me. One thing I did like about Trump is he was pretty reluctant to use military force.
So, what exactly would Trump have used to make Putin "fear" him? Sanctions have been done and didn't work. Trump would have been even more reluctant to use the military and/or fund Ukraine.

 

[steross]

lol . It ranks them 104th out of 180 countries in corruption with 1 being the least corrupt and cites numerous cases of corruption totaling billions of dollars which is what Steross asked for. Only in this place could you find people trying to make the argument that Ukraine isn’t corrupt. It’s hilariously ignorant.

The article states that Ukraine is far less corrupt than the country that your side wants to win. Did you read it? It even talks about how much better it has gotten.

 

[JTOSU]

The article is actually a nuanced, balanced evaluation…..that really doesn’t support GGP’s proposition.

What the?

Look I am in favor of supporting Ukraine, but GGP is absolutely correct about Ukraine’s corrupt history. Ukraine has a long history of at least perceived corruption. And the article he linked supports his proposition.

 

[GOGETUMPOKE]

Good article.

My "bait" is because it makes no sense to me. One thing I did like about Trump is he was pretty reluctant to use military force.
So, what exactly would Trump have used to make Putin "fear" him? Sanctions have been done and didn't work. Trump would have been even more reluctant to use the military and/or fund Ukraine.

They’re in cahoots. Haven’t you heard?

 

[steross]

They’re in cahoots. Haven’t you heard?

Ok, as I thought.
Wishful thinking.

 

[steross]

GGP and JT talking to an old friend:

"Hey, long time no see. How are you guys? I feel great. I've lost 65 pounds!"

"So? You are still fat."

 

[JTOSU]

GGP and JT talking to an old friend:

"Hey, long time no see. How are you guys? I feel great. I've lost 65 pounds!"

"So? You are still fat."

like GGP I am shocked some people appear unaware of the history of corruption with Ukraine. And it shouldn’t shock me that a country ranked in the bottom half of corruption is viewed as not being corrupt by some…solely due to politics.

Steross and JD/Vakarian: “North Korea isn’t bad. They are not at the bottom of the list”. BTW, Kim Jung-un has lost weight but he is still fat.

 

[steross]

like GGP I am shocked some people appear unaware of the history of corruption with Ukraine. And it shouldn’t shock me that a country ranked in the bottom half of corruption is viewed as not being corrupt by some…solely due to politics.

Steross “North Korea isn’t bad. They are not at the bottom of the list”

We have a "history of" slavery. So what? Want something more recent? We have a "history of" civiil unrest and rioting in the streets to the point that portions of cities were taking over. Again, for right now, so what? Considering they are in a war, NOTHING in that article made it sound like there is extreme corruption. All of the "billions" that GGP whined about happened like a decade ago. And, again, when it was bad, it was almost as bad as Russia, the other side. That part is always left out.

The "ranking" is explained in this paragraph:
TI’s ranking—called the Corruption Perceptions Index—does not measure actual corruption, but rather the perception of corruption based on international studies, public opinion polls, and responses from businesspeople and experts. Such sources are subjective by definition. What’s more, perceptions can be significantly influenced by the level of corruption-related information and debate, including public awareness campaigns, extensive investigative reporting, media discussion of corrupt practices, and comments by public figures.

It is like you guys don't even read the articles. You look through for what you want to see. The theme of that article is that Ukraine has done a lot to weed out major corruption over the past several years. The ranking is based on opinion which doesn't change that fast and is biased by politics. And, finally, Russia is far more corrupt and it would not surprise me if that improvement played a part in Russia wanting to take it over.

 

[GOGETUMPOKE]

We have a "history of" slavery. So what? Want something more recent? We have a "history of" civiil unrest and rioting in the streets to the point that portions of cities were taking over. Again, for right now, so what? Considering they are in a war, NOTHING in that article made it sound like there is extreme corruption. All of the "billions" that GGP whined about happened like a decade ago. And, again, when it was bad, it was almost as bad as Russia, the other side. That part is always left out.

The "ranking" is explained in this paragraph:
TI’s ranking—called the Corruption Perceptions Index—does not measure actual corruption, but rather the perception of corruption based on international studies, public opinion polls, and responses from businesspeople and experts. Such sources are subjective by definition. What’s more, perceptions can be significantly influenced by the level of corruption-related information and debate, including public awareness campaigns, extensive investigative reporting, media discussion of corrupt practices, and comments by public figures.

It is like you guys don't even read the articles. You look through for what you want to see. The theme of that article is that Ukraine has done a lot to weed out major corruption over the past several years. The ranking is based on opinion which doesn't change that fast and is biased by politics. And, finally, Russia is far more corrupt and it would not surprise me if that improvement played a part in Russia wanting to take it over.

So let me get this straight. First “Ukraine isn’t corrupt “. Now “Ok Ukraine is corrupt (and pretty much always has been) but they are slightly less corrupt than they used to be. “. As near as I can tell you and JD/Vakarian are the only ones in the universe willing to make the absurd argument that Ukraine isn’t corrupt. You two should recruit Zelenski and form a band. Heads up…Zelenski is gonna want to play the piano.

 

[CowboyJD]

lol . It ranks them 104th out of 180 countries in corruption with 1 being the least corrupt and cites numerous cases of corruption totaling billions of dollars which is what Steross asked for. Only in this place could you find people trying to make the argument that Ukraine isn’t corrupt. It’s hilariously ignorant.

“After all, support for Ukraine’s heroic resistance to Russia’s brutal invasion is a strategic and moral imperative.”

As to your ranking….

“ ranking—called the Corruption Perceptions Index—does not measure actual corruption, but rather the perception of corruption based on international studies, public opinion polls, and responses from businesspeople and experts. Such sources are subjective by definition. What’s more, perceptions can be significantly influenced by the level of corruption-related information and debate, including public awareness campaigns, extensive investigative reporting, media discussion of corrupt practices, and comments by public figures.”

Furthermore….

“While Ukraine still carries an international reputation for endemic corruption, it has made major strides in the past decade. A 2018 report by the Kyiv-based Institute for Economic Research and Policy Consulting (IER), refereed by leading Western experts, documented four years of major anti-corruption reforms in the aftermath of the 2013-2014 Maidan protests, which ousted uber-corrupt President Viktor Yanukovych.

The reforms, including transparent government procurement and the deregulation of the notoriously corrupt energy sector, were estimated to have reduced grand corruption—a category that excludes petty corruption, such as police bribes—by a total of approximately $6 billion, or some 6 percent of Ukraine’s official GDP. Reforms of the state tax and revenue authorities also pared the size of the shadow economy, which dropped from an estimated 43 percent of GDP in 2014 to 33 percent in late 2017.”

So no….it really doesn’t support your contention that Ukraine is presently one of the most corrupt countries in the world.

 

[CowboyJD]

What the?

Look I am in favor of supporting Ukraine, but GGP is absolutely correct about Ukraine’s corrupt history. Ukraine has a long history of at least perceived corruption. And the article he linked supports his proposition.

GGP didn’t make a claim about Ukrainian history.

He claimed it is presently one of the most corrupt in the world.

That article does not factually support that position of your fellow MAGAstanian.

 

[mugatu]

GGP didn’t make a claim about Ukrainian history.

He claimed it is presently one of the most corrupt in the world.

That article does not factually support that position of your fellow MAGAstanian.

If you Google Ukraine and corruption, you'll also find a huge list of arrests of government officials in the last couple years as they continue to turn things around. I'm not going to claim that they have no corruption, but like the article said, it's making big progress. There has also been no evidence I've seen of our materials being misused or stolen and resold - in fact the article about notbbeing to account for things said tgere wasnt evidence of that either. One case I found of someone stealing Ukrainian money that was supposed to go to weapons purchases but nothing with foreign aide.

Again, I'll never say corruption doesn't exist. But that is a country massively trying to change things and it's because of their president.

 

[CowboyJD]

Our MAGAstanians citing a poll which: 1. Admittedly DOES NOT MEASURE ACTUAL CORRUPTION; and
2. The article concedes is WHOLLY SUBJECTIVE….as OBJECTIVE FACTUAL support for the proposition that Ukraine is presently (not hostorically) “one of the most corrupt countries in the world” is on par with their fellow MAGAt MTG’s levels of lunacy and illlgic.

“TI’s ranking—called the Corruption Perceptions Index—does not measure actual corruption, but rather the perception of corruption based on international studies, public opinion polls, and responses from businesspeople and experts. Such sources are subjective by definition.”

 

[CowboyJD]

If you Google Ukraine and corruption, you'll also find a huge list of arrests of government officials in the last couple years as they continue to turn things around. I'm not going to claim that they have no corruption, but like the article said, it's making big progress. There has also been no evidence I've seen of our materials being misused or stolen and resold - in fact the article about notbbeing to account for things said tgere wasnt evidence of that either. One case I found of someone stealing Ukrainian money that was supposed to go to weapons purchases but nothing with foreign aide.

Again, I'll never say corruption doesn't exist. But that is a country massively trying to change things and it's because of their president.

Nobody has said corruption doesn’t exist or that Ukraine doesn’t have a history of corruption….or any of the mischaracterizations GGP has strawmaned into the discussion.

The single proposition I’ve made is that that article does not provide factual support for the proposition that Ukraine is presently “one of the most corrupt countries in the world”.

And it doesn’t.

 

[mugatu]

In response to your obvious bait I will say that in my opinion Putin wouldn’t have invaded if Trump was in office.

Whys that?
Isreal intel given to Russia under scrutiny after Hamas attack

My thought is Putin was waiting for Trump to kill NATO or at least back us out of it as many in his cabinet said he wanted to do. This would have made it easier to invade Ukraine and elsewhere. Putin has invaded country after country for quite some time - previouslywith countries less tied to the west. Generally in the same approach. Instigate unrest with special ops dressed as civilians then invade in a claimed attempt to help protect Russia speakers.

The only reason he didn't invade during Trump's term was that his work was getting easier as the term went on and he was hoping for a second term.

I would say the last President Putin was concerned about was G.W. Bush. After 9/11, they canceled a bomber flight that was supposed to come towards or near the US and immediately called to say it wasn't them.

 

[GOGETUMPOKE]

Whys that?
Isreal intel given to Russia under scrutiny after Hamas attack

My thought is Putin was waiting for Trump to kill NATO or at least back us out of it as many in his cabinet said he wanted to do. This would have made it easier to invade Ukraine and elsewhere. Putin has invaded country after country for quite some time - previouslywith countries less tied to the west. Generally in the same approach. Instigate unrest with special ops dressed as civilians then invade in a claimed attempt to help protect Russia speakers.

The only reason he didn't invade during Trump's term was that his work was getting easier as the term went on and he was hoping for a second term.

I would say the last President Putin was concerned about was G.W. Bush. After 9/11, they canceled a bomber flight that was supposed to come towards or near the US and immediately called to say it wasn't them.

Pure speculation. What we don't have to speculate on is that Putin didn't invade while Trump was in office and we got involved in exactly zero new wars during Trump's four years. When is the last time that happened? Russia and China started rattling their sabers before Sleepy Joe was finished with his inauguration speech.

 

[steross]

So let me get this straight. First “Ukraine isn’t corrupt “. Now “Ok Ukraine is corrupt (and pretty much always has been) but they are slightly less corrupt than they used to be. “. As near as I can tell you and JD/Vakarian are the only ones in the universe willing to make the absurd argument that Ukraine isn’t corrupt. You two should recruit Zelenski and form a band. Heads up…Zelenski is gonna want to play the piano.

As typical, your "getting it straight" is not getting anything straight at all.

Sorry, I asked a question. And, unlike JTOSU, I am not omniscient. I'm really pissed at my medical school and all the CME offerings out there that didn't cover very well the relative corruption of the countries of the world. Apparently, this was something that I should have just known and is worthy of ridicule that I was not attuned to the level of corruption in Ukraine in 2014 on my own.

You have a bizarre use of the word "slightly." Funny, your article described the relative corruption levels of Ukraine in great detail but never used that word once. Maybe you should retract that post since it seems you don't agree with any of the real premise of the article only the word "corruption."