US continues to go backward...

[JTOSU]

Show me ANY data on the harm of taking the few kids who's parents refused the safe vaccine out for the three week incubation period for a severe and highly contagious disease. You are extrapolating long term data from widespread online education for COVID to something completely diffferent. Rookie mistake.

I love people with no training calling everything but their cluelessness "knee-jerk." This is a huge policy change with no evidence base done for politically expediency. Calling that out is not “knee jerk.”

We have eliminated (technical definition as is no longer endemic) this disease in the US since 2000. We have decades of data showing that source control, vaccination (the most critical resource and NOT mentioned in the letter) and exclusion of those at risk has allowed this to happen. What data is there on changing air filters and cleaning classrooms? You call this "very vigillant" but someone with a rudimentarly understanding of the transmission mode of measles virus would calll "windowdressing for idiots."

View attachment 3725

Are you stating that being out of school for three weeks is less impactful than 1/2 a semester? Of course, I definitely agree. But forcing a child to miss three-weeks of in-person school is not good.

I have no idea in this day and age why any parent would not immunize their child. But fact is that 33 of the 1150 students are not vaccinated. There is no doubt measels is a highly contagious dangerous disease. Parents that do not vaccinate their child have apparently weighed those risks previously and decided against getting a shot.

What we should not want from a far-away government is a one-size fits all authoritarIan answer. You are mistaking “political expediency”.
In this case, it appears the response from FL public officials has been to be extremely transparent, but defer to decisions by the local school board …while stating they are monitoring and decisions may change based on data. The school and the local school board has voiced great concern to the students and families and providing multiple options for parents. All the while keeping families very informed. Health officials and the school have repeatedly emphasized the dangers of the measles and are doing everything they can, short of a forced school shutdown, to continue educating students.
While the letter posted earlier in this thread did not mention vaccination options...health officials have physically been located at the school offering measles vaccinations since day two of the outbreak.

The school is offering virtual school options for students, but also being empathetic and empowering parents to choose the best option for their family.

 

[Polds4OSU]

My Pillow Guy Mike Lindell says he won't accept 2024 election results - even if Trump wins​

Magnate Mike Lindell says he won't accept the result of the 2024 election - even if Donald Trump wins.

The online pillow salesman, dubbed My Pillow Guy, whose unproven claims of election rigging through vote counting machines are the subject of a $1.3 billion lawsuit, held court for fellow conspiracy theorists at the CPAC conference near Washington DC today.


The conference sees thousands of the most devoted Donald Trump fans gather to see speeches from right-wing figures - including the former President himself.

"I won't accept anything done with machines ever, in any election," he told reporters in a corridor at the conference. "I will never accept any election, I don't care if Donald Trump wins. These machines have to go."


Asked which of Mr Trump's policies could be improved, Mr Lindell said: "Donald Trump has done everything imaginable. You go back to where we were in this country in December of 2019, before they brought in the China virus and tried to attack our country. All the decisions he had made that led up to that helped all people. He is smart, he makes business decisions like a CEO. He's done everything right."


He added: "I tell him "Sir, they keep attacking you, every time you're indicted for some garbage your polls go up. Pretty soon you're going to have more votes than voters, like Pennsylvania."


It comes after a federal judge on Wednesday affirmed a $5 million arbitration award against the MyPillow chief executive in favor of a software engineer who challenged data that Lindell said proves China interfered in the 2020 U.S. presidential election and tipped the outcome to Joe Biden.


Lindell said he plans to appeal. Asked if he can afford to pay, he pointed out that the breach-of-contract lawsuit was against one of his companies, Lindell Management LLC, and not against him personally.

“Of course we’re going to appeal it. This guy doesn’t have a dime coming,” Lindell said. Lindell, a prominent promoter of false claims that voting machines were manipulated to steal the 2020 election, launched his “Prove Mike Wrong Challenge,” as part of a “Cyber Symposium” he hosted in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, in August 2021.

Lindell offered a $5 million reward through Lindell Management for anyone who could prove that “packet captures” and other data he released there were not valid data “from the November 2020 election.”


Robert Zeidman entered the challenge with a 15-page report that concluded the data from Lindell don’t “contain packet data of any kind and do not contain any information related to the November 2020 election.” A panel of contest judges that included a Lindell attorney declined to declare Zeidman a winner. So Zeidman filed for arbitration under the contest rules.

Last April, a panel of three arbitrators unanimously ordered Lindell to pay Zeidman $5 million, concluding that he had satisfied the contest rules. In Wednesday’s ruling, U.S. District Judge John Tunheim expressed concern about how the panel interpreted a “poorly written contract,” but said courts have limited authority to overrule arbitration awards. He ordered Lindell to pay up with interest within 30 days.

Lindell is also the subject of a $1.3 billion defamation lawsuit filed by Dominion Voting Systems in the District of Columbia that says he falsely accused the company of rigging the 2020 presidential election. He’s also the target of a separate defamation lawsuit in Minnesota by a different voting machine company, Smartmatic.

 

[steross]

Are you stating that being out of school for three weeks is less impactful than 1/2 a semester? Of course, I definitely agree. But forcing a child to miss three-weeks of in-person school is not good.

I have no idea in this day and age why any parent would not immunize their child. But fact is that 33 of the 1150 students are not vaccinated. There is no doubt measels is a highly contagious dangerous disease. Parents that do not vaccinate their child have apparently weighed those risks previously and decided against getting a shot.

What we should not want from a far-away government is a one-size fits all authoritarIan answer. You are mistaking “political expediency”.
In this case, it appears the response from FL public officials has been to be extremely transparent, but defer to decisions by the local school board …while stating they are monitoring and decisions may change based on data. The school and the local school board has voiced great concern to the students and families and providing multiple options for parents. All the while keeping families very informed. Health officials and the school have repeatedly emphasized the dangers of the measles and are doing everything they can, short of a forced school shutdown, to continue educating students.
While the letter posted earlier in this thread did not mention vaccination options...health officials have physically been located at the school offering measles vaccinations since day two of the outbreak.

The school is offering virtual school options for students, but also being empathetic and empowering parents to choose the best option for their family.

Again, show me that a kid learning from home for only three weeks is actually significantly harmful. I've seen nothing for that sort of time frame. I did it as a kid with an illness. Somehow, I made it through. You are making a claim that something is not good with nothing to support it while ignoring the data I have given on how measles is really not good. Very typical of ideologue thought process. "I want this so it is true."

So, what you are saying is even if something is harmful to children and other people's children, as long as the state has in a "transparent" way (IMHO weakly) told the parents the societal risks, then you are OK with it?

Ok, sure anarchy. Just let parents choose to have their kids shoot up meth, carry guns in school or any other action that is known to be dangerous to themselves and others as long at the parents have "weighed those risks previously." We will of course tell them them drugs are bad and kids are not mentally ready to be armed at all times. But, the parents decide, they should be empowered to arm their kids at school.

And, the numbers you keep posting about the immunization rates are not relevant and are the highest I have seen. I've seen immunization rates as low as 89% for the school reported as well as hundreds of kids not immunized. Regardless, we are talking about the unimmunized kids. What you are implying is that as long as it a small number of kids, their personal risk doesn't matter.

 

[JTOSU]

Again, show me that a kid learning from home for only three weeks is actually significantly harmful. I've seen nothing for that sort of time frame. I did it as a kid with an illness. Somehow, I made it through. You are making a claim that something is not good with nothing to support it while ignoring the data I have given on how measles is really not good. Very typical of ideologue thought process. "I want this so it is true."

So, what you are saying is even if something is harmful to children and other people's children, as long as the state has in a "transparent" way (IMHO weakly) told the parents the societal risks, then you are OK with it?

Ok, sure anarchy. Just let parents choose to have their kids shoot up meth, carry guns in school or any other action that is known to be dangerous to themselves and others as long at the parents have "weighed those risks previously." We will of course tell them them drugs are bad and kids are not mentally ready to be armed at all times. But, the parents decide, they should be empowered to arm their kids at school.

And, the numbers you keep posting about the immunization rates are not relevant and are the highest I have seen. I've seen immunization rates as low as 89% for the school reported as well as hundreds of kids not immunized. Regardless, we are talking about the unimmunized kids. What you are implying is that as long as it a small number of kids, their personal risk doesn't matter.

So you advocating government take a more active role in parenting for items that add risk to children. Are you now suddenly supporting bans on gender affirmative care?

And yes carrying guns in schools is a phenomenal analogy - c’mon.
And in no case have I even remotely implied the risk doesn’t matter.

If you don’t know vaccination rates — at Manatee Bay Elementary simply read the news. There is a lot more information about the situation and the school and government response than the letter posted earlier. Both CBS and ABC News have reported the +97% amount and gave the specific number of 33 of the nearly 1200 students.

 

[CowboyJD]

So you advocating government take a more active role in parenting for items that add risk to children. Are you now suddenly supporting bans on gender affirmative care?

More mischaracterization, strawmanning, and refusing to engage honestly with the actual proposition in favor of making up your own proposition to argue against.

At least you're consistent.

Gotta give you that.

 

[JTOSU]

Again, show me that a kid learning from home for only three weeks is actually significantly harmful. I've seen nothing for that sort of time frame. I did it as a kid with an illness. Somehow, I made it through. You are making a claim that something is not good with nothing to support it while ignoring the data I have given on how measles is really not good. Very typical of ideologue thought process. "I want this so it is true."

So, what you are saying is even if something is harmful to children and other people's children, as long as the state has in a "transparent" way (IMHO weakly) told the parents the societal risks, then you are OK with it?

Ok, sure anarchy. Just let parents choose to have their kids shoot up meth, carry guns in school or any other action that is known to be dangerous to themselves and others as long at the parents have "weighed those risks previously." We will of course tell them them drugs are bad and kids are not mentally ready to be armed at all times. But, the parents decide, they should be empowered to arm their kids at school.

And, the numbers you keep posting about the immunization rates are not relevant and are the highest I have seen. I've seen immunization rates as low as 89% for the school reported as well as hundreds of kids not immunized. Regardless, we are talking about the unimmunized kids. What you are implying is that as long as it a small number of kids, their personal risk doesn't matter.

Also if you don’t recognize there have been multiple studies (including several way before the pandemic) showing that missing as few as 2 days per month negatively affects education then I can’t help you.
Amazing how easy Google can help inform. It can also help you get vaccination rates of the particular elementary school.

 

[JTOSU]

More mischaracterization, strawmanning, and refusing to engage honestly with the actual proposition in favor of making up your own proposition to argue against.

At least you're consistent.

Gotta give you that.

Was the proposition guns in schools and having parents arm their kids in schools? Having parents allow kid to shoot up meth?

You are very consistent with your inconsistency. Please continue.

 

[HacklemanPoke]

Also if you don’t recognize there have been multiple studies (including several way before the pandemic) showing that missing as few as 2 days per month negatively affects education then I can’t help you.
Amazing how easy Google can help inform. It can also help you get vaccination rates of the particular elementary school.

Are you advocating for parental choice to send an unvaccinated kid who has been exposed and is within the contagious window back into a school where they could infect as much as 50 other kids leading to potential death and life long suffering all in the name of keeping a kid in school 2 days longer?

 

[Polds4OSU]

Also if you don’t recognize there have been multiple studies (including several way before the pandemic) showing that missing as few as 2 days per month negatively affects education then I can’t help you.
Amazing how easy Google can help inform. It can also help you get vaccination rates of the particular elementary school.

So the state that issued this letter about the Measles suddenly cares about Public Education and making sure kids are in school?

THE SAME EXACT state
that is currently

Attempting to pass legislation to allow kids as young as 14 to work overnight shifts even during school days and allowing these same kids to work full time and longer hours .

THE SAME EXACT State that quite literally YESTERDAY held a meeting led by a GOP Rep for the state to talk about the Absentee Epidemic they have in Florida with 31% of Students in the state missing 1 out of every 10 Days in school....or 3 days per Month (already beyond your 2 day target you say will be detrimental above)

So sending sick kids into school who are already experiencing a absentee epidemic and in which kids may soon be working full time overnight jobs and then trying to go to school as well.....it is a good Idea to encourage introducing illness into the population can compound and add even MORE to the absenteeism

 

[CowboyJD]

Was the proposition guns in schools and having parents arm their kids in schools? Having parents allow kid to shoot up meth?

You are very consistent with your inconsistency. Please continue.

THIS was the proposition (I bolded the relevant part)....

So, what you are saying is even if something is harmful to children and other people's children, as long as the state has in a "transparent" way (IMHO weakly) told the parents the societal risks, then you are OK with it?

Which you mischaracterized as this....

So you advocating government take a more active role in parenting for items that add risk to children. Are you now suddenly supporting bans on gender affirmative care?

Unless you can show gender affirmative care to a child in one family is harmful to OTHER PEOPLE'S CHILDREN.....you absolutely mischaracterized and attacked a proposition that he isn't even making.

And you can't.

But please continue with your intellectual dishonesty.

I'll happily keep outing it.

 

[CowboyJD]

Are you advocating for parental choice to send an unvaccinated kid who has been exposed and is within the contagious window back into a school where they could infect as much as 50 other kids leading to potential death and life long suffering all in the name of keeping a kid in school 2 days longer?

That's EXACTLY what he is advocating.

As long as the state is being transparent about it.

 

[HacklemanPoke]

That's EXACTLY what he is advocating.

As long as the state is being transparent about it.

Not sure he thought that one all the way through.

 

[Polds4OSU]

That's EXACTLY what he is advocating.

As long as the state is being transparent about it.

and advocating for it in a state that is already facing 31% of students already missing 3 days per month without any health related issues or outbreaks..

 

[CowboyJD]

Not sure he thought that one all the way through.

He probably hasn't thought through all of the implications of what he is advocating for, but he is clearly advocating for parents being allowed to send their non-vaccinated children to school where there is an outbreak.....which could lead to everything that you mentioned (becoming exposed themselves and reinfecting other people's children).

 

[steross]

So you advocating government take a more active role in parenting for items that add risk to children. Are you now suddenly supporting bans on gender affirmative care?

And yes carrying guns in schools is a phenomenal analogy - c’mon.
And in no case have I even remotely implied the risk doesn’t matter.

If you don’t know vaccination rates — at Manatee Bay Elementary simply read the news. There is a lot more information about the situation and the school and government response than the letter posted earlier. Both CBS and ABC News have reported the +97% amount and gave the specific number of 33 of the nearly 1200 students.

Your question in the first sentence is simply a lie. The Surgeon General of Florida is the one who has made a change from how government has handled this situation for at least decades. So, no, I am not stating that the government should take a "more active" role. I'm saying that government should not BEGIN to put kids at harm just because they have stupid parents and stupid political leaders.

Yes, carrying guns in school is a great analogy. You know as well as I do that there are parents who would be fine with their kid having a gun. Why do you feel that practices we both agree are harmful should be left to the parents in public health but not in firearms control?

If you don't understand English, maybe you should try not to throw in tacky insults that make you look stupid. I did not in any way say that I don't know the vaccination rates that have been reported. I said that the ones that you took as gospel because you let confirmation bias drive you are the highest ones that I have seen. Your incompetence on this subject is only outdone by your arrogance:

Measles erupts in Florida school where 11% of kids are unvaccinated

Over 100 children at the school are susceptible to virus.

arstechnica.com

MSN

www.msn.com

Rise in measles cases at Broward elementary school could just be the beginning, doctor says

On Friday, Broward County Public Schools announced that there was one confirmed case reported at Manatee Bay Elementary School. The next day, BCPS announced that three additional cases were reported overnight, bringing the total to four.

www.cbsnews.com

Finally, the difference between you and I is that I know this stuff and back up what I say with data. You claim missing 2 days of school causes harm yet don't post where you got that info, instead you refer to "google" because:
1. It isn't true
2. It is such a poorly done study that you are embarrased to link it
3. You are just being a jerk

 

[Vakarian74]

Not sure he thought that one all the way through.

Does he on anything?

 

[CowboyJD]

Does he on anything?

I searched for a "Magic 8 ball says 'Outlook Not Good'" GIF, but the closest I got was....

Magic saying Nope.

Good enough.

 

[JTOSU]

Your question in the first sentence is simply a lie. The Surgeon General of Florida is the one who has made a change from how government has handled this situation for at least decades. So, no, I am not stating that the government should take a "more active" role. I'm saying that government should not BEGIN to put kids at harm just because they have stupid parents and stupid political leaders.

Yes, carrying guns in school is a great analogy. You know as well as I do that there are parents who would be fine with their kid having a gun. Why do you feel that practices we both agree are harmful should be left to the parents in public health but not in firearms control?

If you don't understand English, maybe you should try not to throw in tacky insults that make you look stupid. I did not in any way say that I don't know the vaccination rates that have been reported. I said that the ones that you took as gospel because you let confirmation bias drive you are the highest ones that I have seen. Your incompetence on this subject is only outdone by your arrogance:

Measles erupts in Florida school where 11% of kids are unvaccinated

Over 100 children at the school are susceptible to virus.

arstechnica.com

MSN

www.msn.com

Rise in measles cases at Broward elementary school could just be the beginning, doctor says

On Friday, Broward County Public Schools announced that there was one confirmed case reported at Manatee Bay Elementary School. The next day, BCPS announced that three additional cases were reported overnight, bringing the total to four.

www.cbsnews.com

Finally, the difference between you and I is that I know this stuff and back up what I say with data. You claim missing 2 days of school causes harm yet don't post where you got that info, instead you refer to "google" because:
1. It isn't true
2. It is such a poorly done study that you are embarrased to link it
3. You are just a jerk

I would argue that confirmation bias is what you posted. I stated a figure that came directly from the principal of the school. As I posted earlier, there is a ABC news video interview of the Manatee Bay Elementary principal in which he states 97 to 98% of students at the school are vaccinated. I’ll let you find that yourself, but here is an article with a quote from the Superintendent. Title of headline is “Superintendent says 3 percent of students are unvaccinated”. Later he specifically is quoted as saying, “Currently there are 33 of 1,067 Manatee Bay students that do not have an MMR vaccine for various reasons,” Licata told Local 10 News Wednesday. (I hope you would agree using facts from those sources is not confirmation bias). But again, the 97% fact has been WIDELY reported — not the 11% figure that truly is there to support confirmation bias.

Superintendent says 3 percent of students are unvaccinated at Broward school with measles cases

Local 10 News has learned the State has the power to ask the parents of those who have been vaccinated not to come back to school following the recent measles cases in Broward County.

www.local10.com

As for being a jerk for knowing that missing school causes harm. Again, there are MYRIAD studies on this. Certainly many post-pandemic, but also good studies pre-pandemic. Maybe I am just more aware than you due to being much more closer to public education. But again, it is not new information that missing school has a direct link to lower test scores and outcomes. I assume this was known info and not a point of argument. Here is an article in The Atlantic in 2016. It is based on two 2015 studies. You will see the quote and stats about missing just 2 school days/month. And of course that increases harm with more days as the study shows. https://www.theatlantic.com/educati...-term-consequences-of-missing-school/498599/#

 

[HacklemanPoke]

I would argue that confirmation bias is what you posted. I stated a figure that came directly from the principal of the school. As I posted earlier, there is a ABC news video interview of the Manatee Bay Elementary principal in which he states 97 to 98% of students at the school are vaccinated. I’ll let you find that yourself, but here is an article with a quote from the Superintendent. Title of headline is “Superintendent says 3 percent of students are unvaccinated”. Later he specifically is quoted as saying, “Currently there are 33 of 1,067 Manatee Bay students that do not have an MMR vaccine for various reasons,” Licata told Local 10 News Wednesday. (I hope you don’t claim he is a bad source). But this has been WIDELY reported — not the 11% figure that truly is there to support confirmation bias.

Superintendent says 3 percent of students are unvaccinated at Broward school with measles cases

Local 10 News has learned the State has the power to ask the parents of those who have been vaccinated not to come back to school following the recent measles cases in Broward County.

www.local10.com

As for being a jerk for knowing that missing school causes harm. Again, there are MYRIAD studies on this. Certainly many post-pandemic, but also good studies pre-pandemic. Maybe I am just more aware than you due to being much more closer to public education. But again, it is not new information that missing school has a direct link to lower test scores and outcomes. I assume this was known info and not a point of argument. Here is an article in The Atlantic in 2016. It is based on two 2015 studies. https://www.theatlantic.com/educati...-term-consequences-of-missing-school/498599/#

I’m not sure you’re debating the same thing. I don’t think anyone would debate that generally inconsistent attendance leads to inconsistent academic performance.

The nuance that appears to be lacking is that in this instance the parental choice of sending an unvaccinated child into a measles outbreak could potentially lead to a far worse outcome for that child and worse if that child was exposed and is in the presymptom contagious window lead to far worse outcomes for both the vaccinated (98% vaccine efficacy) and other unvaccinated children. And let’s remember there are children whose parents would chose vaccination but bc of other medical conditions cannot get that child vaccinated.

Are you good w those children missing school? How many days of missed school is ok for a vaccinated kid bc another kid comes to school w measles? The unvaccinated kid exposed misses what a week at the risk of other kids dying, suffering long term illness and potentially disability or weeks or months of school?

What is the risk reward here for you?

 

[steross]

Confirmation bias is what you posted. Why not go direct to the source that would actually know? You apparently didn’t realize there is a ABC news video interview of the Manatee Bay Elementary principal in which he states 97 to 98% of students at the school are vaccinated. I’ll let you find that yourself, but here is an article with a quote from the Superintendent. Title of headline is “Superintendent says 3 percent of students are unvaccinated”. Later he specifically is quoted as saying ““Currently there are 33 of 1,067 Manatee Bay students that do not have an MMR vaccine for various reasons,” Licata told Local 10 News Wednesday. (I hope you don’t claim he is a bad source). But this has been WIDELY reported — not the 11% figure that truly is there to support confirmation bias.

Superintendent says 3 percent of students are unvaccinated at Broward school with measles cases

Local 10 News has learned the State has the power to ask the parents of those who have been vaccinated not to come back to school following the recent measles cases in Broward County.

www.local10.com

As for being a jerk for knowing that missing school causes harm. Again, there are MYRIAD studies on this. Certainly many post-pandemic, but also good studies pre-pandemic. Maybe I am just more aware than you due to being much more closer to public education. But again, it is not new information that missing school has a direct link to lower test scores and outcomes. I assume this was known info and not a point of argument. Here is an article in The Atlantic in 2016. It is based on two 2015 studies. https://www.theatlantic.com/educati...-term-consequences-of-missing-school/498599/#

It appears you don't even know what confirmation bias is. YOU were the one that spouted one number. All I said was that there were more numbers out there reported. To "confirm" I would have had to say that one is right which I did not. Obviously, you need to confirm to have a confirmation bias.

As to the principal being a good source, well, he is defending the piss-poor decision as you would expect. And, the numbers he is giving are the number of kids that have had any measles vaccination whatsoever. The CDC considers a school-age child vaccinated if they have had two of the series. So, no, I don't consider him a great source. Either not saying the truth or doesn't understand:
School officials say that 92% of the students at Manatee Bay are vaccinated for the measles and 97% of the students have at least one dose of the MMR vaccine. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the MMR vaccination rate in Florida is around 91%.

No, you are not being a jerk for "knowing" anything. You are being a jerk by referring to "studies" then when called on it saying "go look at google" instead of posting a link to what you are claiming. Nobody believes you have a study showing 2 days of missed school causes a long-term effect. The Atlantic article is behind a paywall for me (too liberal to pay for) but the title says "chronic" and each time they mention abseteeism it says "chronic" so I'm guessing that your one attempt to provide a source has nothing to do with missing school one period of time to avoid a severe illness.