Ukraine. Ukraine. Ukraine.

[Donnyboy]

JD you asked for my answer you may not agree but here it goes…..

There is no way Ukraine wins. They will either give up some land or be shelled to the point the country will be third world for a long time even with assistance from west. They will have to do our bidding if this continues any longer.. Missiles ship faster than roads get built. Very soon if someone else doesn’t do some fighting for them they’re done. They have already lost it just depends on what they want to call a win.

We don’t have the best record of leaving blown up in stable recently.

So if I’m President Donnyboy I would give off the land they have. The condition is Ukraine joins NATO same day. A huge chunk of that population wants it. The ones that don’t will be given assistance to move to a NATO nation. Europe wins from the energy partner so they can’t quit stockpiling wood. We cut some rebuild checks that are humanitarian so it’s hard to fight and easier for a public that just voted for all the folks that are against funding this war to swallow. I make it very clear to Putin in the negotiations that Putin gets to make a speech but if he steps out of his new room all of NATO will consider it a declaration of war. And I get billions of dollars ahead and further away from could become a world war. Because we are closer right now than we have been in a long time. The UK a nuclear power has also supplied them with long range missiles….longer than the ones we gave them. North Korea the other nuclear power with a dictator so crazy he makes Putin look normal has sent troops to combat. Again soon someone will have to join the Ukraine at scale. .This needs to be put to an end.

 

[GOGETUMPOKE]

Putin signs Russia's nuclear doctrine update into law

Putin will share Russia's nuclear deterrence with its allies—mirroring NATO's "attack on one member is an attack on all" doctrine.

www.newsweek.com

Biden warns Russia not to use a tactical nuclear weapon

President Joe Biden said Russia would be making a "serious, serious mistake" should it deploy a tactical nuclear weapon in Ukraine, his latest warning to President Vladimir Putin against escalating the months-long conflict.

amp.cnn.com

So that doesn’t happen every day…..

The runway got shorter guys….even if it’s all sword rattling it’s one that can’t be again. I’m saying there was no reason for a man the world knows is senile to do anything that could make the runway shorter. If Putin is the crazy dictator we all think he is at some point he runs out of room. God knows what Trump is gonna do…..but do you want him and Putin to have less room in a standoff?

This was so incredibly dumb to do right now. None of the pieces should have been moved. If Kamala had won none of the pieces should have been moved till she had the chair.

If it makes you feel any better about Biden’s current decision making ability I feel compelled to point out that the man literally wandered into a rain forest yesterday.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1858286973682855973

 

[Donnyboy]

This is about your Biden hate boner isn't it?

No man. I don’t hate guy. I hope he has a wonderful life. But he isn’t as sharp as he once was and we all know it. The whole world knows it. He needs to step aside.

 

[CowboyJD]

JD you asked for my answer you may not agree but here it goes…..

There is no way Ukraine wins. They will either give up some land or be shelled to the point the country will be third world for a long time even with assistance from west. They will have to do our bidding if this continues any longer.. Missiles ship faster than roads get built. Very soon if someone else doesn’t do some fighting for them they’re done. They have already lost it just depends on what they want to call a win.

We don’t have the best record of leaving blown up in stable recently.

So if I’m President Donnyboy I would give off the land they have. The condition is Ukraine joins NATO same day. A huge chunk of that population wants it. The ones that don’t will be given assistance to move to a NATO nation. Europe wins from the energy partner so they can’t quit stockpiling wood. We cut some rebuild checks that are humanitarian so it’s hard to fight and easier for a public that just voted for all the folks that are against funding this war to swallow. I make it very clear to Putin in the negotiations that Putin gets to make a speech but if he steps out of his new room all of NATO will consider it a declaration of war. And I get billions of dollars ahead and further away from could become a world war. Because we are closer right now than we have been in a long time. The UK a nuclear power has also supplied them with long range missiles….longer than the ones we gave them. North Korea the other nuclear power with a dictator so crazy he makes Putin look normal has sent troops to combat. Again soon someone will have to join the Ukraine at scale. .This needs to be put to an end.

How are you going to enforce your “Ukraine joins NATO same day” edict with Putin when Ukraine possibly joining NATO some day in the future was his primary “justification” for invading in the first place?

You’ve just moved us closer to WWW III than anything done to date by anyone involved.

Congratulations.

More importantly, how does not allowing Ukraine to continue to defend themselves by any means available to them during negotiations make it more likely that Putin will accept your edict? The truth is not allowing themselves to continue to defend themselves makes it LESS likely that Putin would agree to such a demand.

 

[PF5]

It's their fault they border Russia. If the country was a few thousand miles away Russia wouldn't have been tempted to invade.

it was sarcasm...

 

[Donnyboy]

How are you going to enforce your “Ukraine joins NATO same day” edict with Putin when Ukraine possibly joining NATO some day in the future was his primary “justification” for invading in the first place?

You’ve just moved us closer to WWW III than anything done to date by anyone involved.

Congratulations.

Because he gets his land and gets go home and say he won. The kicking screaming as Bowers accurately put nuclear power dictator needs something out this….heb can't last forever but he is strong enough there is no upside either

 

[Donnyboy]

What’s your plan JD…..

 

[CowboyJD]

Because he gets his land and gets go home and say he won. The kicking screaming as Bowers accurately put nuclear power dictator needs something out this….heb can't last forever but he is strong enough there is no upside either way.

You’re in fantasy land if you think he is going to exchange the land he has now for immediate entry into NATO by Ukraine.

And you’re in fruit loop land if you think he will do that with Ukraine not being able to continue to effectively defend themselves during negotiations.

 

[CowboyJD]

What’s your plan JD…..

My plan is to continue fighting a proxy war against Russia while engaging in continued diplomatic efforts.

You know….just like Reagan did during the Cold War that eventually brought the Berlin Wall down and resulted in freedom for multiple former Soviet block countries.

I would be okay with exchanging the Russia conquered land in Ukraine for immediate Ukrainian entry into NATO….but it’s going to involve some type of proxy war to convince Russia that doing so would be in their own best interest to do that.

 

[Donnyboy]

My plan is to continue fighting a proxy war against Russia while engaging in continued diplomatic efforts.

You know….just like Reagan did during the Cold War that eventually brought the Berlin Wall down and resulted in freedom for multiple former Soviet block countries.

Well I’m glad you want start diplomatic efforts that part will be new to this. We are 36T and our fed chairman said it’s unsustainable. Fruit Loops and fantasies or whatever of you think we can afford that. It’s been cheap so far compared to what it will have to be. You also didn’t address that other nations will have to join very soon or your war is over anyway.

 

[CowboyJD]

Because he gets his land and gets go home and say he won. The kicking screaming as Bowers accurately put nuclear power dictator needs something out this….heb can't last forever but he is strong enough there is no upside either

You really think Putin would take that offer today?

You really think that’s all the land he plans on getting?

You really think cutting off aid to Ukraine now gets him closer to agreeing to that?

No, no, and no is the correct answer.

 

[CowboyJD]

Well I’m glad you want start diplomatic efforts that part will be new to this. We are 36T and our fed chairman said it’s unsustainable. Fruit Loops and fantasies or whatever of you think we can afford that. It’s been cheap so far compared to what it will have to be. You also didn’t address that other nations will have to join very soon or your war is over anyway.

Other nations are already joined in the proxy war, Donny.

 

[Donnyboy]

You really think Putin would take that offer today?

You really think that’s all the land he plans on getting?

You really think cutting off aid to Ukraine now gets him closer to agreeing to that.

I don’t know if he would but that would be a place I could live with if I can get him there. He is very powerful but old and a lot more vulnerable than he was. But a long war with him is not a good thing.

That’s why you tell him if he moves a toe out of his new area in any direction it’s an act of war against NATO. If this was part of some large scale scheme to get the entire old band back together he has to see that isn’t going to happen. Would he like it sure….he has to see now he can’t. He didn’t get half his neighbor in 2.5 years and his military doesn’t look as scary either. But he has enough of all of it to drag this out a long enough.

No I don’t think cutting off aid now makes him want to deal. I think that’s what Trump is going to do in large part if not entirely. Those are two different things.

 

[Donnyboy]

Other nations are already joined in the proxy war, Donny.

It’s going to have to be more than proxy for others soon. They themselves cannot fight a drawn out proxy war. So it ain’t a proxy no more for someone and that complicates this exponentially regardless who it is.

 

[CowboyJD]

I don’t know if he would but that would be a place I could live with if I can get him there. He is very powerful but old and a lot more vulnerable than he was. But a long war with him is not a good thing.

That’s why you tell him if he moves a toe out of his new area in any direction it’s an act of war against NATO. If this was part of some large scale scheme to get the entire old band back together he has to see that isn’t going to happen. Would he it sure….he has to see now he can’t. He didn’t get half his neighbor in 2.5 years and his military doesn’t look as scary either. But he has enough of all it to drag this out a long enough time.

No I don’t think cutting off aid now makes to deal. I think that’s what Trump is going to do in large part if not entirely. Those are two different things.

You and I both know he wouldn’t right now and you can’t get him there by doing nothing but offering.

We’re really not that far apart.

I too have agreed that I could live with your proposal if we can get him there. I’m not talking about a goal of destroying Russia or regime change in Russia through a proxy war.

I just think continued support of Ukraine (“proxy war”) while engaging in deal making is what it would take to get him there.

At least you finally kinda answered my original question:

“Can you tell me what "better" deal Ukraine gets in the end of this from NOT continuing to defend themselves by any means available to them that they don't get if they DO continue doing so?”

 

[CowboyJD]

It’s going to have to be more than proxy for others soon. They themselves cannot fight a drawn out proxy war. So it ain’t a proxy no more for someone and that complicates this exponentially regardless who it is.

No it isn’t.

That’s nonsense.

 

[Donnyboy]

No it isn’t.

That’s nonsense.

How long now that this has escalated do you think the Ukraine can hold its lines by itself and what do you do when they can’t and he gains more ground. He has that ability they don’t. Ukraine is going to run out of a fighting force large enough to hold him before he runs out. Our own officials have said half a million military and reserves are dead or wounded. They can’t hold up dude someone is going to have to join them.

This isn’t the iron curtain failing and a dozen new nations are born. Your setting up a Veitnam or Korea…..you use a nuke or lose at worst or lose ground anyway at best….but if you use a nuke on Russia we all lose…..

 

[CowboyJD]

How long now that this has escalated do you think the Ukraine can hold its lines by itself and what do you do when they can’t and he gains more ground. He has that ability they don’t. Ukraine is going to run out of a fighting force large enough to hold him before he runs out. Our own officials have said half a million are dead or wounded. They can’t hold up dude someone is going to have to join them.

This isn’t the iron curtain failing and a dozen new nations are born. Your setting up a Veitnam or Korea…..you use a nuke or lose at worst or lose ground anyway at best and if you use a nuke on Russia we all lose.

You’re going fully Donny again.

Before that ridiculous assertion….when you were talking some sense….we weren’t that far aparts.

You and I both know he wouldn’t right now and you can’t get him there by doing nothing but offering.

We’re really not that far apart.

I too have agreed that I could live with your proposal if we can get him there. I’m not talking about a goal of destroying Russia or regime change in Russia through a proxy war.

I just think continued support of Ukraine (“proxy war”) while engaging in deal making is what it would take to get him there.

At least you finally kinda answered my original question:

“Can you tell me what "better" deal Ukraine gets in the end of this from NOT continuing to defend themselves by any means available to them that they don't get if they DO continue doing so?”

The reality of the situation is that Trump isn’t going to do anything remotely similar to either of our proposal.

So this whole discussion of “our” plans is completely irrelevant anyways.

It’s been an entertaining distraction, but I’m going to bed.

 

[Donnyboy]

Well have sweet dreams buddy you can call it full Donny but you’re ducking a big question….

Ukraine is going to run out of everything before Russia does in a proxy war for the rest of us even with us sending them weapons….so how long do you think they can make it?

What do we do if either a) someone joins directly? b) he starts taking more ground?

One of those is going to happen if this continues.

Talk to you in the morning!

 

[CowboyJD]

Well have sweet dreams buddy you can call it full Donny but you’re ducking a big question….

Ukraine is going to run out of everything before Russia does in a proxy war for the rest of us even with us sending them weapons….so how long do you think they can make it?

What do we do if either a) someone joins directly? b) he starts taking more ground?

One of those is going to happen if this continues.

Talk to you in the morning!

I’m not ducking anything, Donny.

You’re moving goalposts and attempting redefine the goals of a “proxy war” to something I’ve expressly said isn’t the goal.

The purpose of a “proxy war” is to make Putin take a deal….to make the cost/benefits of taking the deal you’ve prooosed better for Russia than the cost/benefits of continuing aggression.

And saying “one of those two things are going to happen” if we continue support Ukraine doesn’t make it true.

You’re right back at there’s nothing you’re willing to do to convince Putin he should take your offer. An offer that we both know he won’t take without some “encouragement” in the form of some cost to him for not doing so. All these words to end up right back at being a surrender monkey and not supporting Ukraine at all.

It’s exhausting to try to deal with you going full Donny.

I’m out.