Philosophy & Religion Thread

[GratefulPoke]

This isn’t circular. I’m not saying free will exists because dimensions exist; I’m saying if multiple dimensions diverge from identical starting conditions, determinism alone can’t explain the variance. Free will isn’t “in” a dimension—it’s an agent‑level process whose consequences differentiate dimensions. If outcomes vary in a reason‑responsive way rather than being identical or random, then agency is doing real causal work. Multiplicity doesn’t negate free will; it makes the absence of it harder to defend.

Free will is not about consequences. It is about decision making and agency. All one needs to disrupt a "free will" narrative would be an element of coercion, a lack of information, or an autonomous human response. Do babies "choose" to wet their diaper, or have they not developed the ability to choose? Can an adult choose to not pee ever again? Can someone choose an option of something they have never thought of before? Or something they have no ability to even conceptualize about? The former might be a trivial point, but more complex issues hold up even less well under scrutiny.

Even if one buys a nebulous multiple dimensions argument (I want to be clear, I don't), these are just more opportunities for the argument to be found false. Just one instance otherwise and "free will" isn't free anymore. We have more than one example, which is my point.

For free will to exist, total agency would need to exist. And it doesn't in any way, shape or form.

 

[Polds4OSU]

Free will is not about consequences. It is about decision making and agency. All one needs to disrupt a "free will" narrative would be an element of coercion, a lack of information, or an autonomous human response. Do babies "choose" to wet their diaper, or have they not developed the ability to choose? Can an adult choose to not pee ever again? Can someone choose an option of something they have never thought of before? Or something they have no ability to even conceptualize about? The former might be a trivial point, but more complex issues hold up even less well under scrutiny.

Even if one buys a nebulous multiple dimensions argument (I want to be clear, I don't), these are just more opportunities for the argument to be found false. Just one instance otherwise and "free will" isn't free anymore. We have more than one example, which is my point.

For free will to exist, total agency would need to exist. And it doesn't in any way, shape or form.

You’re redefining free will as “total agency,” but that standard has never been met by any account of free will—religious or secular.

Free will has always meant the ability to choose among available, intelligent alternatives not the ability to override biology, development, or logic itself.

Babies, bodily constraints, ignorance, and coercion don’t refute free will; they define its boundaries.

The existence of non‑free cases doesn’t eliminate free cases any more than blindness eliminates vision.

Agency is a graded, context‑dependent capacity, not an all‑or‑nothing metaphysical substance.

My point isn’t that free will is universal or absolute—it’s that it doesn’t require a deity to exist, and multiplicity makes agent‑level causation easier to defend, not harder.

 

[UpGrayedd Double Dose]

I have studied a lot about free will, human, responsibility, sovereignty, irresistible grace, etc. so I am not a novice, but I honestly don't understand what either of you are talking about.

 

[Polds4OSU]

I have studied a lot about free will, human, responsibility, sovereignty, irresistible grace, etc. so I am not a novice, but I honestly don't understand what either of you are talking about.

Free will in a Theoretical Multi Dimensional space with or without an all powerful Deity...its actually more Physics Theory and Philosophy than religious

But real existing Philosophy non the less


If you want to see a visual of this theory. Watch Deadpool Vrs Wolverine .......At one point when Deadpool realizes where he is with the TVA and can see all of the Timelines and branches across all of the Multiverse (ie multiple dimensions)

He looks directly at the camera and says "I'm Marvel's Jesus"

This is a nod to this theory. In this theory IF there is a Deity that is all powerful, this would be their perspective and view of the Entire existence of everything. The ability to see all dimensions at once and follow the timeline and free will path of any and every instance of any dimension. IE when Deadpool is standing in the TVA and can see this...he refers to himself as "Jesus"

Then Deadpool goes on a spree through all the Time Lines / Dimensions of Wolverine and tracking down the version of Wolverine that exists in that dimension and each and every one of them is completely different as they have all had Free Will and their Dimensions affected and shaped by the Free Will of the entities in each Dimension.

This is how Hollywood displayed this Theory / Philosophy

 

[GratefulPoke]

I have studied a lot about free will, human, responsibility, sovereignty, irresistible grace, etc. so I am not a novice, but I honestly don't understand what either of you are talking about.

Things got strange when the multi dimension red herring got thrown out there. I should have left it be haha.

 

[HacklemanPoke]

Free will in a Theoretical Multi Dimensional space with or without an all powerful Deity...its actually more Physics Theory and Philosophy than religious

But real existing Philosophy non the less


If you want to see a visual of this theory. Watch Deadpool Vrs Wolverine .......At one point when Deadpool realizes where he is with the TVA and can see all of the Timelines and branches across all of the Multiverse (ie multiple dimensions)

He looks directly at the camera and says "I'm Marvel's Jesus"

This is a nod to this theory. In this theory IF there is a Deity that is all powerful, this would be their perspective and view of the Entire existence of everything. The ability to see all dimensions at once and follow the timeline and free will path of any and every instance of any dimension. IE when Deadpool is standing in the TVA and can see this...he refers to himself as "Jesus"

Then Deadpool goes on a spree through all the Time Lines / Dimensions of Wolverine and tracking down the version of Wolverine that exists in that dimension and each and every one of them is completely different as they have all had Free Will and their Dimensions affected and shaped by the Free Will of the entities in each Dimension.

This is how Hollywood displayed this Theory / Philosophy

So is Trump saying he’s Deadpool or a Dr?

 

[GratefulPoke]

You’re redefining free will as “total agency,” but that standard has never been met by any account of free will—religious or secular.

Free will has always meant the ability to choose among available, intelligent alternatives not the ability to override biology, development, or logic itself.

Babies, bodily constraints, ignorance, and coercion don’t refute free will; they define its boundaries.

The existence of non‑free cases doesn’t eliminate free cases any more than blindness eliminates vision.

Agency is a graded, context‑dependent capacity, not an all‑or‑nothing metaphysical substance.

My point isn’t that free will is universal or absolute—it’s that it doesn’t require a deity to exist, and multiplicity makes agent‑level causation easier to defend, not harder.

Again, therefore "free will" doesn't exist as human beings are unable to make decisions without being constrained by external forces. All choices have some level of constraint and either historical, biological, genetic, environmental influence, etc. There is no tabula rasa necessary for the choice to be "free".

I don't think determinism is correct either, reality resides somewhere in between these poles.

 

[Polds4OSU]

Again, therefore "free will" doesn't exist as human beings are unable to make decisions without being constrained by external forces. All choices have some level of constraint and either historical, biological, genetic, environmental influence, etc. There is no tabula rasa necessary for the choice to be "free".

I don't think determinism is correct either, reality resides somewhere in between these poles.

So in your mind free will can't exists because of it did a baby would have to choose to be conceived, chose which sperm to impregnate which egg and chose if it wanted to survive and be born or not ...so there has to be zero limitations to everything thing know for free will to be a thing ? Interesting

 

[GratefulPoke]

So in your mind free will can't exists because of it did a baby would have to choose to be conceived, chose which sperm to impregnate which egg and chose if it wanted to survive and be born or not ...so there has to be zero limitations to everything thing know for free will to be a thing ? Interesting

I mean, aren't you arguing that God created us and gave us free will? Does it not strike you as ironic considering we had no choice in the matter?

 

[steross]

I'm saying that the Initial claim can be viewed through a different lens then some view it through and having that view can be theorized and supported by very minimal but accurate data.

I'm saying it is an issue that can viewed from a different direction and completely different perspective if your willing to theorize and visualize a multi dimensional Space

Sorry, I can't keep up with what you are saying. The person that links things more than the rest of board put together making claims of multiutdes of other dimensions with the backing of the word "science" but no link is strange.

Are you saying there is some dimension where rich men raping 12 year olds would be a pleasing thing to God so "through that lens" it is Ok so the all powerful God lets it happen here?

 

[Polds4OSU]

I mean, aren't you arguing that God created us and gave us free will? Does it not strike you as ironic considering we had no choice in the matter?

No you challenged there is no free will, I challenged that with a philosophy that says otherwise. You took a hard stance on it and I challenged it with a contradicting point.

I personally believe God provided the building blocks of life and left the outcome of those building blocks through free will evolution

But that's my personal view not what this theory says

 

[Polds4OSU]

Sorry, I can't keep up with what you are saying. The person that links things more than the rest of board put together making claims of multiutdes of other dimensions with the backing of the word "science" but no link is strange.

Are you saying there is some dimension where rich men raping 12 year olds would be a pleasing thing to God so "through that lens" it is Ok so the all powerful God lets it happen here?

The point of the theory is that Free will exist with or without a Diety.

Everyone tries to tie free will back to a religious idea, this theory holds that free will is entirely capable with or without a Diety present

 

[steross]

The point of the theory is that Free will exist with or without a Diety.

Everyone tries to tie free will back to a religious idea, this theory holds the hat free will is entirely capable with or without a Diety present

That is a claim, not a point.

Consider this. Do you have free will to determine your blood pressure? How about your hunger?
We may be able to modulate them, but we do not have free will over them. You cannot will, "My blood pressure is to be 118/76 or I weight 278 lbs so I will not be hungry."

So, the vast majority of the processes of our brains occur with no input from our consciousness.

Well, then could it be possible that ALL of our brain's processes occur without input from our consciousness . As we become aware of them, we think we are making a choice, but it is possible the brain has already made the initial choice.

Take this research from decades ago:
A freely voluntary act was found to be preceded, by about 550 ms, by the
readiness potential (a slow surface negative electrical charge that is maximal at the
vertex). But subjects reported becoming first aware of the wish or intention to act
only about 200 ms (SE 20 ms) before the act (Libet et al., 1983; Libet, 1985).
This meant that the brain was initiating the volitional process unconsciously, at least
350 ms before the person was aware of wanting to act.

I think before we start seeking other dimensions or whatever your point is (that honestly I still do not understand), we probably should start within our own organism and be confident that we control that. I think that is the point that @GratefulPoke was trying to get across. The massive number of inputs into our will before we are even able to consciously consider it make it pretty hard to call that "free will."

 

[Polds4OSU]

That is a claim, not a point.

Consider this. Do you have free will to determine your blood pressure? How about your hunger?
We may be able to modulate them, but we do not have free will over them. You cannot will, "My blood pressure is to be 118/76 or I weight 278 lbs so I will not be hungry."

So, the vast majority of the processes of our brains occur with no input from our consciousness.

Well, then could it be possible that ALL of our brain's processes occur without input from our consciousness . As we become aware of them, we think we are making a choice, but it is possible the brain has already made the initial choice.

Take this research from decades ago:
A freely voluntary act was found to be preceded, by about 550 ms, by the
readiness potential (a slow surface negative electrical charge that is maximal at the
vertex). But subjects reported becoming first aware of the wish or intention to act
only about 200 ms (SE 20 ms) before the act (Libet et al., 1983; Libet, 1985).
This meant that the brain was initiating the volitional process unconsciously, at least
350 ms before the person was aware of wanting to act.

I think before we start seeking other dimensions or whatever your point is (that honestly I still do not understand), we probably should start within our own organism and be confident that we control that. I think that is the point that @GratefulPoke was trying to get across. The massive number of inputs into our will before we are even able to consciously consider it make it pretty hard to call that "free will."

Its an actual theory and philosophy all on its own

Not my thoughts or my personal beliefs


It's an actual thing that people follow and believe and study

I'm simply pointing out that theory and it's existence and what is says that is in contrast to what @GratefulPoke posted

 

[TheMonkey]

I personally believe God provided the building blocks of life and left the outcome of those building blocks through free will evolution

Ooh boy. Now we’re treading into Prometheus.

 

[GratefulPoke]

That is a claim, not a point.

Consider this. Do you have free will to determine your blood pressure? How about your hunger?
We may be able to modulate them, but we do not have free will over them. You cannot will, "My blood pressure is to be 118/76 or I weight 278 lbs so I will not be hungry."

So, the vast majority of the processes of our brains occur with no input from our consciousness.

Well, then could it be possible that ALL of our brain's processes occur without input from our consciousness . As we become aware of them, we think we are making a choice, but it is possible the brain has already made the initial choice.

Take this research from decades ago:
A freely voluntary act was found to be preceded, by about 550 ms, by the
readiness potential (a slow surface negative electrical charge that is maximal at the
vertex). But subjects reported becoming first aware of the wish or intention to act
only about 200 ms (SE 20 ms) before the act (Libet et al., 1983; Libet, 1985).
This meant that the brain was initiating the volitional process unconsciously, at least
350 ms before the person was aware of wanting to act.

I think before we start seeking other dimensions or whatever your point is (that honestly I still do not understand), we probably should start within our own organism and be confident that we control that. I think that is the point that @GratefulPoke was trying to get across. The massive number of inputs into our will before we are even able to consciously consider it make it pretty hard to call that "free will."

This is much clearer than what I was trying to convey.

 

[Polds4OSU]

That is a claim, not a point.

So, the vast majority of the processes of our brains occur with no input from our consciousness.

Well, then could it be possible that ALL of our brain's processes occur without input from our consciousness . As we become aware of them, we think we are making a choice, but it is possible the brain has already made the initial choice.

Take this research from decades ago:
A freely voluntary act was found to be preceded, by about 550 ms, by the
readiness potential (a slow surface negative electrical charge that is maximal at the
vertex). But subjects reported becoming first aware of the wish or intention to act
only about 200 ms (SE 20 ms) before the act (Libet et al., 1983; Libet, 1985).
This meant that the brain was initiating the volitional process unconsciously, at least
350 ms before the person was aware of wanting to act.

Define a Thought.
or
Define Consciousness.

What do they mean in physiological terms

Now that you have defined Consciousness in physiological terms then read this statement again

Well, then could it be possible that ALL of our brain's processes occur without input from our consciousness . As we become aware of them, we think we are making a choice, but it is possible the brain has already made the initial choice.

​

 

[PF5]

not to change the subject, but changing the subject, how bad were people on Earth when God destroyed all of mankind in a flood?! cuz we have plenty of $h!tty people now, especially ´leaders´ of countries?
and this totally contradicts what I brought up earlier about God not interfering...and is the fact that God destroyed ´bad people´ in the Bible the reason people support Israel and tRump (they seem to support genocide)??

 

[steross]

Define a Thought.
or
Define Consciousness.

What do they mean in physiological terms

Now that you have defined Consciousness in physiological terms then read this statement again

Well, then could it be possible that ALL of our brain's processes occur without input from our consciousness . As we become aware of them, we think we are making a choice, but it is possible the brain has already made the initial choice.

​

Hey Socrates, how about if you have a different idea of the definition of those terms from the standard known ones you go ahead and tell us your thoughts on them. And, if you think there is some "physiologic term" for these that is different you can tell us that too. But, given the fact that your posts over the past few days have every other person thinking, "Ummm, what?" there is not a chance in hell that I am going to play along with "Guess what I am thinking."

 

[GratefulPoke]

No you challenged there is no free will, I challenged that with a philosophy that says otherwise. You took a hard stance on it and I challenged it with a contradicting point.

I personally believe God provided the building blocks of life and left the outcome of those building blocks through free will evolution

But that's my personal view not what this theory says

I disagree with this summary. You continued to make claims without supporting evidence. I am already familiar with free will as a concept. What I haven't seen is you provide supporting documentation and build an argument to support your initial point. Instead, you made additional claims and shifted the goalposts toward some sort of pseudophilosophical metaphysics instead of making the case.