Philosophy & Religion Thread

[TheMonkey]

That is really fascinating to me. Morality working itself out in social community. What is Haidt's background?

He grew up as a secular Jew. At 17, he was in a motorcycle accident that nearly killed him and left him with serious head injury. He says this was formative as it made him face his mortality and pursue ideas around life’s purpose and our existence. He decided to pursue social psychology because of this.

He grew up as a secular liberal, but he still defends conservative values and critiques the left when their views seem unhealthy. For example, I read his book The Coddling of the American Mind, where he is very critical of the liberal protective mindset towards children and students. He argues their philosophy of “What doesn’t kill you makes you weaker.” has created a generation that lacks determination and resilience.

 

[LaB_OkState]

He grew up as a secular Jew. At 17, he was in a motorcycle accident that nearly killed him and left him with serious head injury. He says this was formative as it made him face his mortality and pursue ideas around life’s purpose and our existence. He decided to pursue social psychology because of this.

He grew up as a secular liberal, but he still defends conservative values and critiques the left when their views seem unhealthy. For example, I read his book The Coddling of the American Mind, where he is very critical of the liberal protective mindset towards children and students. He argues their philosophy of “What doesn’t kill you makes you weaker.” has created a generation that lacks determination and resilience.

I was wondering why his name sounded familiar. I read The Coddling of the American Mind. You may have tipped me over to read this book.

 

[TheMonkey]

I was wondering why his name sounded familiar. I read The Coddling of the American Mind. You may have tipped me over to read this book.

I think his most well-known book is The Anxious Generation, which—ironically—I haven’t read.

 

[LaB_OkState]

I think his most well-known book is The Anxious Generation, which—ironically—I haven’t read.

It was okay. The first part of it basically is the whole book. Basically early phone and social media access is bad for kids and has produced negavtice results in those who have partaken of it. Also when a bunch of kids have it, it affects their generation.

 

[steross]

Surveillance footage captured the 32 seconds from when the shooter entered the school to when Moore subdued him, holding him down until the assistant principal arrived and secured the weapon.

Tammy D., a substitute teacher at the school and a close friend of Moore, shared her gratitude for his actions.

"We're just thankful. So thankful that God was in control," Tammy said.



The above is from an article about the near school shooting in Paul's Valley this week stopped by the principal.

I hope this doesn't sound like nit-picking because I am genuinely curious. You see these statements from people of faith after something good happens or a tragedy is minimized thanking God. And, to some extent I understand it. It is part of our common vocabulary that even I use "Hey, turns out that hail storm that was coming this way dissipated." "Oh, thank God."

But, are people saying this just as a nicety, or are they really believing that God decided to step in and grant this particluar principal the ability to stop a school shooting but decided for Uvade and Sandy Hook and Columbine etc, etc, etc to just let the bad stuff happen? If God is to be thanked for controlling these situations, what about our free will?

I have a hard time reconciling thanking God for good things but blaming the human's free will or the storm, or the earthquake for the bad things.

 

[GratefulPoke]

Surveillance footage captured the 32 seconds from when the shooter entered the school to when Moore subdued him, holding him down until the assistant principal arrived and secured the weapon.

Tammy D., a substitute teacher at the school and a close friend of Moore, shared her gratitude for his actions.

"We're just thankful. So thankful that God was in control," Tammy said.



The above is from an article about the near school shooting in Paul's Valley this week stopped by the principal.

I hope this doesn't sound like nit-picking because I am genuinely curious. You see these statements from people of faith after something good happens or a tragedy is minimized thanking God. And, to some extent I understand it. It is part of our common vocabulary that even I use "Hey, turns out that hail storm that was coming this way dissipated." "Oh, thank God."

But, are people saying this just as a nicety, or are they really believing that God decided to step in and grant this particluar principal the ability to stop a school shooting but decided for Uvade and Sandy Hook and Columbine etc, etc, etc to just let the bad stuff happen? If God is to be thanked for controlling these situations, what about our free will?

I have a hard time reconciling thanking God for good things but blaming the human's free will or the storm, or the earthquake for the bad things.

In short: God set up the system, but he is never to blame for its shortcomings.

That doesn't fly with anyone else.

 

[cowboyinexile]

In short: God set up the system, but he is never to blame for its shortcomings.

That doesn't fly with anyone else.

Have you seen how Trump does things?


Ohhhhh I understand that weird AI post he made the other day now.

 

[TheMonkey]

Surveillance footage captured the 32 seconds from when the shooter entered the school to when Moore subdued him, holding him down until the assistant principal arrived and secured the weapon.

Tammy D., a substitute teacher at the school and a close friend of Moore, shared her gratitude for his actions.

"We're just thankful. So thankful that God was in control," Tammy said.



The above is from an article about the near school shooting in Paul's Valley this week stopped by the principal.

I hope this doesn't sound like nit-picking because I am genuinely curious. You see these statements from people of faith after something good happens or a tragedy is minimized thanking God. And, to some extent I understand it. It is part of our common vocabulary that even I use "Hey, turns out that hail storm that was coming this way dissipated." "Oh, thank God."

But, are people saying this just as a nicety, or are they really believing that God decided to step in and grant this particluar principal the ability to stop a school shooting but decided for Uvade and Sandy Hook and Columbine etc, etc, etc to just let the bad stuff happen? If God is to be thanked for controlling these situations, what about our free will?

I have a hard time reconciling thanking God for good things but blaming the human's free will or the storm, or the earthquake for the bad things.

I have a lot of respect for the pastor we had at our church in Tulsa. He would say that God is in charge, not in control. At the time, I thought that was a good description. Maybe resembling to what @GratefulPoke mentioned.

It’s no longer my worldview, and doesn’t make as much sense to me now.

 

[PJ-OSU]

Surveillance footage captured the 32 seconds from when the shooter entered the school to when Moore subdued him, holding him down until the assistant principal arrived and secured the weapon.

Tammy D., a substitute teacher at the school and a close friend of Moore, shared her gratitude for his actions.

"We're just thankful. So thankful that God was in control," Tammy said.



The above is from an article about the near school shooting in Paul's Valley this week stopped by the principal.

I hope this doesn't sound like nit-picking because I am genuinely curious. You see these statements from people of faith after something good happens or a tragedy is minimized thanking God. And, to some extent I understand it. It is part of our common vocabulary that even I use "Hey, turns out that hail storm that was coming this way dissipated." "Oh, thank God."

But, are people saying this just as a nicety, or are they really believing that God decided to step in and grant this particluar principal the ability to stop a school shooting but decided for Uvade and Sandy Hook and Columbine etc, etc, etc to just let the bad stuff happen? If God is to be thanked for controlling these situations, what about our free will?

I have a hard time reconciling thanking God for good things but blaming the human's free will or the storm, or the earthquake for the bad things.

In a much less serious situation than your example, I made particular note of this from the wrestlers at the NCAA championships. Paraphrasing here, but they would say something like "I talked to God/Jesus and he said to just keep my faith strong and I would succeed" or "I prayed about this and put it in God's hands". Looking at it from another perspective, what about the opponent? You (the winner) were granted favor over the other guy because reasons? And spare me the god works in mysterious ways. That seems to be a random filler for everything.

To one of your points, I find myself saying OMG as a reflex to things vs attributing anything to a higher being. Might be a product of growing up in OK attending churches and hearing how other people express emotions in the moment. It's certainly not intentional or related to "God" if/when I say it now.

 

[Polds4OSU]

 

[PF5]

I read ´The Shack´ years ago, and I seem to recall God explaining to the dad that God doesn´t intervene in human/world events because people have freewill, and God does not stop evil acts because of that, just tries to bring good out of bad situations...I starting questioning why I prayed for my families safety, cuz if God doesn´t intervene in events, what´s the use?! If God did intervene and ´save´ a member of my family, how does God decide when to act?!

 

[GratefulPoke]

I read ´The Shack´ years ago, and I seem to recall God explaining to the dad that God doesn´t intervene in human/world events because people have freewill, and God does not stop evil acts because of that, just tries to bring good out of bad situations...I starting questioning why I prayed for my families safety, cuz if God doesn´t intervene in events, what´s the use?! If God did intervene and ´save´ a member of my family, how does God decide when to act?!

I don't think there is any evidence "free will" exists. Generally those that argue in support of free will are conflating it with choice, which is not the same thing whatsoever.

Almost everything is a product of a collection of previous causes and effects. The choices we make are downstream of that reality. How can one choose something they are completely unaware of or have incomplete information on? Free will doesn't pass the sniff test. Its main purpose is to absolve God of any and all responsibility for anything evil or brutal in the world. It is an attempt to rationalize the contradictions between an all powerful, all good God and immense suffering/the existence of evil.

But it doesn't work. One can either have an all powerful God who is at the very least partially evil, a good God who is not all powerful, or no existence of God, a who made who situation.

 

[Polds4OSU]

I don't think there is any evidence "free will" exists. Generally those that argue in support of free will are conflating it with choice, which is not the same thing whatsoever.

Almost everything is a product of a collection of previous causes and effects. The choices we make are downstream of that reality. How can one choose something they are completely unaware of or have incomplete information on? Free will doesn't pass the sniff test. Its main purpose is to absolve God of any and all responsibility for anything evil or brutal in the world. It is an attempt to rationalize the contradictions between an all powerful, all good God and immense suffering/the existence of evil.

But it doesn't work. One can either have an all powerful God who is at the very least partially evil, a good God who is not all powerful, or no existence of God, a who made who situation.

Ohh I'm going to challenge that

Multi-dimensional is my take. God is the only being of the highest dimension, whether it’s 11, 33, 37 or any other higher order. The rest of the Heavenly beings, our souls included, are of a lower dimension. Our bodies are locked into this 4 dimension universe which we inhabit. That’s a semi-scientific explanation.

It is highly possible.
They are theoretically possible and Mathematically possible with the top 4 leading Physics theories predict 5-11 extra dimensions.

CERN has proven that information in quantum states can mathematically live in 37 dimensions at once

Science can currently Prove right now that information can exists in 37 dimensions at once thus proving at least some sort of Multi Dimension existence is real. Even our best science theories all point at a minimum of 5 extra dimensions

Knowing that

Free Will can Fully 100% exists AND an All Powerful God can exists at the same time and lord over an unknown number of dimensions where every form of Free Will is conducted at the same time.

You just happen to be in a dimension where those peoples actions and free will resulted in a different outcome than say another dimension.

 

[PF5]

too deep for me...I just see free will as people making decisions (so I guess, making choices, as @GratefulPoke says)...when my alarm goes off, I get up or snooze (decision)...deciding what to wear, eat, etc....when a car cuts me off, I let it go, flip them off, honk my horn, etc (decision)...or in extreme cases, decide whether to kill or not...

 

[GratefulPoke]

Ohh I'm going to challenge that





Science can currently Prove right now that information can exists in 37 dimensions at once thus proving at least some sort of Multi Dimension existence is real. Even our best science theories all point at a minimum of 5 extra dimensions

Knowing that

Free Will can Fully 100% exists AND an All Powerful God can exists at the same time and lord over an unknown number of dimensions where every form of Free Will is conducted at the same time.

You just happen to be in a dimension where those peoples actions and free will resulted in a different outcome than say another dimension.

I don't see how your argument supports the truth claim "humans have free will". How does multiple dimensions reduce the contradiction between two assertions that we can demonstrate to be in opposition based on the available evidence?

Adding additional unsupported claims into the mix does not strengthen that initial claim.

 

[Polds4OSU]

I don't see how your argument supports the truth claim "humans have free will". How does multiple dimensions reduce the contradiction between two assertions that we can demonstrate to be in opposition based on the available evidence?

Adding additional unsupported claims into the mix does not strengthen that initial claim.

I'm saying that the Initial claim can be viewed through a different lens then some view it through and having that view can be theorized and supported by very minimal but accurate data.

I'm saying it is an issue that can viewed from a different direction and completely different perspective if your willing to theorize and visualize a multi dimensional Space

 

[GratefulPoke]

I'm saying that the Initial claim can be viewed through a different lens then some view it through and having that view can be theorized and supported by very minimal but accurate data.

I'm saying it is an issue that can viewed from a different direction and completely different perspective if your willing to theorize and visualize a multi dimensional Space

Ok, what is that lens? A nebulous statement about multiple dimensions muddies the water. What dimensions/concepts about dimensions support the argument that there is in fact "free will" and an all powerful deity?

Free will is like free markets, both are theoretical concepts that do not actually exist in real life. I say this as a pro-choice (I'm not referencing abortion here) and pro-markets person.

 

[Polds4OSU]

Ok, what is that lens? A nebulous statement about multiple dimensions muddies the water. What dimensions/concepts about dimensions support the argument that there is in fact "free will" and an all powerful deity?

Free will is like free markets, both are theoretical concepts that do not actually exist in real life. I say this as a pro-choice (I'm not referencing abortion here) and pro-markets person.

Well if you are willing to accept the idea of multiple Dimensions. you don't even have to have an all Powerful Deity watching over them to see that Free Will can exists

Free Will executed by humans across multiple times and dimensions at the same time all with different results and outcomes all unique and all different because of Free Will.

If Multiple Dimensions Exists then you must theorize that free will exists as you would not expect the same events to happen or occur in the same order over and over exactly the same....that is duplicity....not multiplicity

It is a way to theorize free will WITHOUT a Deity as well

 

[GratefulPoke]

Well if you are willing to accept the idea of multiple Dimensions. you don't even have to have an all Powerful Deity watching over them to see that Free Will can exists

Free Will executed by humans across multiple times and dimensions at the same time all with different results and outcomes all unique and all different because of Free Will.

If Multiple Dimensions Exists then you must theorize that free will exists as you would not expect the same events to happen or occur in the same order over and over exactly the same....that is duplicity....not multiplicity

It is a way to theorize free will WITHOUT a Deity as well

This seems like circular logic to me. What dimensions does free will exist in and how does it exist in those spaces?

There are a lot of Christian denominations that reject free will, so it is not even a universal claim inside of the faith.

 

[Polds4OSU]

This seems like circular logic to me. What dimensions does free will exist in and how does it exist in those spaces?

There are a lot of Christian denominations that reject free will, so it is not even a universal claim inside of the faith.

This isn’t circular. I’m not saying free will exists because dimensions exist; I’m saying if multiple dimensions diverge from identical starting conditions, determinism alone can’t explain the variance. Free will isn’t “in” a dimension—it’s an agent‑level process whose consequences differentiate dimensions. If outcomes vary in a reason‑responsive way rather than being identical or random, then agency is doing real causal work. Multiplicity doesn’t negate free will; it makes the absence of it harder to defend.

The theological problem of free will only arises if there is one correct future God foreknows and enforces. In a genuinely multiple‑outcome universe, omniscience becomes knowledge of branches, not control of choices. Remove the single‑timeline assumption and the theological contradiction disappears—along with the need for God to ground free will at all.


Free will:

• Does not need God to exist
• Is not threatened by multiplicity
• Is actually clarified by it

In Modern Physics and Philosophy is is called Many‑Worlds interpretations and modal realism.