Brother always gotta one up…
Philosophy & Religion Thread
- Thread starter GratefulPoke
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Almost. See my first couple of sentences above.
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Hell
The word “hell” itself comes from Norse mythology, Hel is goddess of the dead and the ruler of the underworld and thus the reason why modern translations have stopped using the word.
There are four words in scripture that are translated “Hell”, although some modern translations have moved away from that term altogether: sheol (OT), Gehenna, hades, and Tartarus.
Sheol in the OT was simply the abode of the dead, the ancient Hebrews did not have a fully developed concept of an afterlife and the concept of afterlife didn’t begin to develop in Judaism until somewhere around the second century BC.
Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus are found in the NT, and Tartarus is only found once. Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnom, was a place that was used as a burning ground for refuse and unclean things, and possibly bodies (you can find a lot of stuff about it that is probably untrue, but it was considered unclean for sure and the mention would have been shocking).
Matthew 5:21-30
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell (Gehenna) of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. 26 Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.
Jesus is saying that calling your brother, your fellow Jew, a "fool" is shocking and detestable. Does this sound familiar?
In the same chapter:
27 “You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell (Gehenna). 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell (Gehenna).
In fundamentalism there is a strong bent for women to "dress modestly" so as not to inspire lustful thoughts from men. But Jesus is quite clear here that it is the thinker who is responsible for controlling their thoughts and not the person who dresses. The modesty verses in the epistles have nothing to do with this, Jesus puts it on the thinker and no one else. Now, the "hell" or Gehenna that Jesus speaks of here in Matthew 5 he speaks of "hell of fire" so it implies conscious torment, whether brief or eternal he does not say.
Hades appears to be an abode of the dead equivalent to sheol, and it will be destroyed.
Matthew 11:20-24
Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”
Luke 10:13-16
13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more bearable in the judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades.
16 “The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
Here Jesus appears to simply refers to Hades as the realm of the dead.
Luke 16:19-31
19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
Here in Luke Jesus refers to something different. Lazarus is not only in the realm of the dead, but is in conscious torment and suffering as a form of punishment after death while in Hades.
Revelation 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Death and Hades will ultimately be destroyed in the late of fire. Even for those who may undergo some concscious torment in Hades, it will not be eternal. It will have a finite end.
Tartarus is a deep abyss.
2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell (Tartarus) and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
Tartarus is used only once in scripture. It does not appear that people are sent to Tartarus, only angels (demons). They will eventually be cast into the lake of fire.
And there is the lake of fire spoken of in revelation. Revelation 19:17-21
The concepts of what happens to the wicked after death are:
Annihilation - after death the wicked cease to exist.
Annihilation after brief conscious torment
Eternal conscious torment
If we read the Gospels we see Jesus referring to all three concepts of hell, annihilation, annihilation after brief conscious torment, and eternal conscious torment.
The concept of “hell” as only eternal conscious torment is a post-scriptural convention that developed around the fourth century AD. The modern concept of hell being ruled over by Satan and being a place where people are tortured by demons is a medieval fiction that is entirely foreign to scripture.
Hell has mainly been used to control people through fear. Fear is no reason to accept God, it is no better than accepting God at gunpoint or with a sword to the neck.
God is love. (1 John 4:8)
John 3:16 God so loved the world that he gave his only Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Matthew 28:19-20
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.
John 3:16 is the Gospel and Matthew 28:19-20 the Great Commission. Jesus didn't tell us to tell the world about hell or Sheol/Hades/Gehenna/Tartarus. He told us to tell the world about the Gospel, the Good News of Salvation in His Name. God is Love. Preach love, not fear
The word “hell” itself comes from Norse mythology, Hel is goddess of the dead and the ruler of the underworld and thus the reason why modern translations have stopped using the word.
There are four words in scripture that are translated “Hell”, although some modern translations have moved away from that term altogether: sheol (OT), Gehenna, hades, and Tartarus.
Sheol in the OT was simply the abode of the dead, the ancient Hebrews did not have a fully developed concept of an afterlife and the concept of afterlife didn’t begin to develop in Judaism until somewhere around the second century BC.
Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus are found in the NT, and Tartarus is only found once. Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnom, was a place that was used as a burning ground for refuse and unclean things, and possibly bodies (you can find a lot of stuff about it that is probably untrue, but it was considered unclean for sure and the mention would have been shocking).
Matthew 5:21-30
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell (Gehenna) of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. 26 Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.
Jesus is saying that calling your brother, your fellow Jew, a "fool" is shocking and detestable. Does this sound familiar?
In the same chapter:
27 “You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell (Gehenna). 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell (Gehenna).
In fundamentalism there is a strong bent for women to "dress modestly" so as not to inspire lustful thoughts from men. But Jesus is quite clear here that it is the thinker who is responsible for controlling their thoughts and not the person who dresses. The modesty verses in the epistles have nothing to do with this, Jesus puts it on the thinker and no one else. Now, the "hell" or Gehenna that Jesus speaks of here in Matthew 5 he speaks of "hell of fire" so it implies conscious torment, whether brief or eternal he does not say.
Hades appears to be an abode of the dead equivalent to sheol, and it will be destroyed.
Matthew 11:20-24
Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”
Luke 10:13-16
13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more bearable in the judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades.
16 “The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
Here Jesus appears to simply refers to Hades as the realm of the dead.
Luke 16:19-31
19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
Here in Luke Jesus refers to something different. Lazarus is not only in the realm of the dead, but is in conscious torment and suffering as a form of punishment after death while in Hades.
Revelation 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Death and Hades will ultimately be destroyed in the late of fire. Even for those who may undergo some concscious torment in Hades, it will not be eternal. It will have a finite end.
Tartarus is a deep abyss.
2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell (Tartarus) and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
Tartarus is used only once in scripture. It does not appear that people are sent to Tartarus, only angels (demons). They will eventually be cast into the lake of fire.
And there is the lake of fire spoken of in revelation. Revelation 19:17-21
The concepts of what happens to the wicked after death are:
Annihilation - after death the wicked cease to exist.
Annihilation after brief conscious torment
Eternal conscious torment
If we read the Gospels we see Jesus referring to all three concepts of hell, annihilation, annihilation after brief conscious torment, and eternal conscious torment.
The concept of “hell” as only eternal conscious torment is a post-scriptural convention that developed around the fourth century AD. The modern concept of hell being ruled over by Satan and being a place where people are tortured by demons is a medieval fiction that is entirely foreign to scripture.
Hell has mainly been used to control people through fear. Fear is no reason to accept God, it is no better than accepting God at gunpoint or with a sword to the neck.
God is love. (1 John 4:8)
John 3:16 God so loved the world that he gave his only Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Matthew 28:19-20
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.
John 3:16 is the Gospel and Matthew 28:19-20 the Great Commission. Jesus didn't tell us to tell the world about hell or Sheol/Hades/Gehenna/Tartarus. He told us to tell the world about the Gospel, the Good News of Salvation in His Name. God is Love. Preach love, not fear
6*7=42
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