Brother always gotta one up…
Philosophy & Religion Thread
- Thread starter GratefulPoke
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Almost. See my first couple of sentences above.
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Hell
The word “hell” itself comes from Norse mythology, Hel is goddess of the dead and the ruler of the underworld and thus the reason why modern translations have stopped using the word.
There are four words in scripture that are translated “Hell”, although some modern translations have moved away from that term altogether: sheol (OT), Gehenna, hades, and Tartarus.
Sheol in the OT was simply the abode of the dead, the ancient Hebrews did not have a fully developed concept of an afterlife and the concept of afterlife didn’t begin to develop in Judaism until somewhere around the second century BC.
Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus are found in the NT, and Tartarus is only found once. Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnom, was a place that was used as a burning ground for refuse and unclean things, and possibly bodies (you can find a lot of stuff about it that is probably untrue, but it was considered unclean for sure and the mention would have been shocking).
Matthew 5:21-30
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell (Gehenna) of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. 26 Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.
Jesus is saying that calling your brother, your fellow Jew, a "fool" is shocking and detestable. Does this sound familiar?
In the same chapter:
27 “You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell (Gehenna). 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell (Gehenna).
In fundamentalism there is a strong bent for women to "dress modestly" so as not to inspire lustful thoughts from men. But Jesus is quite clear here that it is the thinker who is responsible for controlling their thoughts and not the person who dresses. The modesty verses in the epistles have nothing to do with this, Jesus puts it on the thinker and no one else. Now, the "hell" or Gehenna that Jesus speaks of here in Matthew 5 he speaks of "hell of fire" so it implies conscious torment, whether brief or eternal he does not say.
Hades appears to be an abode of the dead equivalent to sheol, and it will be destroyed.
Matthew 11:20-24
Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”
Luke 10:13-16
13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more bearable in the judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades.
16 “The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
Here Jesus appears to simply refers to Hades as the realm of the dead.
Luke 16:19-31
19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
Here in Luke Jesus refers to something different. Lazarus is not only in the realm of the dead, but is in conscious torment and suffering as a form of punishment after death while in Hades.
Revelation 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Death and Hades will ultimately be destroyed in the late of fire. Even for those who may undergo some concscious torment in Hades, it will not be eternal. It will have a finite end.
Tartarus is a deep abyss.
2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell (Tartarus) and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
Tartarus is used only once in scripture. It does not appear that people are sent to Tartarus, only angels (demons). They will eventually be cast into the lake of fire.
And there is the lake of fire spoken of in revelation. Revelation 19:17-21
The concepts of what happens to the wicked after death are:
Annihilation - after death the wicked cease to exist.
Annihilation after brief conscious torment
Eternal conscious torment
If we read the Gospels we see Jesus referring to all three concepts of hell, annihilation, annihilation after brief conscious torment, and eternal conscious torment.
The concept of “hell” as only eternal conscious torment is a post-scriptural convention that developed around the fourth century AD. The modern concept of hell being ruled over by Satan and being a place where people are tortured by demons is a medieval fiction that is entirely foreign to scripture.
Hell has mainly been used to control people through fear. Fear is no reason to accept God, it is no better than accepting God at gunpoint or with a sword to the neck.
God is love. (1 John 4:8)
John 3:16 God so loved the world that he gave his only Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Matthew 28:19-20
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.
John 3:16 is the Gospel and Matthew 28:19-20 the Great Commission. Jesus didn't tell us to tell the world about hell or Sheol/Hades/Gehenna/Tartarus. He told us to tell the world about the Gospel, the Good News of Salvation in His Name. God is Love. Preach love, not fear
The word “hell” itself comes from Norse mythology, Hel is goddess of the dead and the ruler of the underworld and thus the reason why modern translations have stopped using the word.
There are four words in scripture that are translated “Hell”, although some modern translations have moved away from that term altogether: sheol (OT), Gehenna, hades, and Tartarus.
Sheol in the OT was simply the abode of the dead, the ancient Hebrews did not have a fully developed concept of an afterlife and the concept of afterlife didn’t begin to develop in Judaism until somewhere around the second century BC.
Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus are found in the NT, and Tartarus is only found once. Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnom, was a place that was used as a burning ground for refuse and unclean things, and possibly bodies (you can find a lot of stuff about it that is probably untrue, but it was considered unclean for sure and the mention would have been shocking).
Matthew 5:21-30
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell (Gehenna) of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. 26 Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.
Jesus is saying that calling your brother, your fellow Jew, a "fool" is shocking and detestable. Does this sound familiar?
In the same chapter:
27 “You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell (Gehenna). 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell (Gehenna).
In fundamentalism there is a strong bent for women to "dress modestly" so as not to inspire lustful thoughts from men. But Jesus is quite clear here that it is the thinker who is responsible for controlling their thoughts and not the person who dresses. The modesty verses in the epistles have nothing to do with this, Jesus puts it on the thinker and no one else. Now, the "hell" or Gehenna that Jesus speaks of here in Matthew 5 he speaks of "hell of fire" so it implies conscious torment, whether brief or eternal he does not say.
Hades appears to be an abode of the dead equivalent to sheol, and it will be destroyed.
Matthew 11:20-24
Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”
Luke 10:13-16
13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more bearable in the judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades.
16 “The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
Here Jesus appears to simply refers to Hades as the realm of the dead.
Luke 16:19-31
19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
Here in Luke Jesus refers to something different. Lazarus is not only in the realm of the dead, but is in conscious torment and suffering as a form of punishment after death while in Hades.
Revelation 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Death and Hades will ultimately be destroyed in the late of fire. Even for those who may undergo some concscious torment in Hades, it will not be eternal. It will have a finite end.
Tartarus is a deep abyss.
2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell (Tartarus) and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
Tartarus is used only once in scripture. It does not appear that people are sent to Tartarus, only angels (demons). They will eventually be cast into the lake of fire.
And there is the lake of fire spoken of in revelation. Revelation 19:17-21
The concepts of what happens to the wicked after death are:
Annihilation - after death the wicked cease to exist.
Annihilation after brief conscious torment
Eternal conscious torment
If we read the Gospels we see Jesus referring to all three concepts of hell, annihilation, annihilation after brief conscious torment, and eternal conscious torment.
The concept of “hell” as only eternal conscious torment is a post-scriptural convention that developed around the fourth century AD. The modern concept of hell being ruled over by Satan and being a place where people are tortured by demons is a medieval fiction that is entirely foreign to scripture.
Hell has mainly been used to control people through fear. Fear is no reason to accept God, it is no better than accepting God at gunpoint or with a sword to the neck.
God is love. (1 John 4:8)
John 3:16 God so loved the world that he gave his only Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Matthew 28:19-20
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.
John 3:16 is the Gospel and Matthew 28:19-20 the Great Commission. Jesus didn't tell us to tell the world about hell or Sheol/Hades/Gehenna/Tartarus. He told us to tell the world about the Gospel, the Good News of Salvation in His Name. God is Love. Preach love, not fear
6*7=42
This is a dizzying chart. These are all the groups in the world that use or have used the Book of Mormon. My family traces roots to the beginning of the Mormon church. Joseph Smith's great granddaughter Audentia married an Anderson. my family name (yes, I just doxxed myself). We are also related by marriage to Lyman Wight who took a group to Texas after Joseph Smith Jr. was killed in the Carthage, Il. jail resulting in a succession crisis. Wight refused to follow Brigham Young to Utah from Illinois, and again refused when Young came to Texas to plead again and chased Young out of his church with a 12 gauge. The Wightites didn't last long and eventually folded into the RLDS under the leadership of Joseph Smith III.
I played football at the RLDS university, Graceland, which was where Bruce Jenner went to school. Graceland had also recruited my older brother David and we went on a recruiting trip and met Jenner when Jenner was in college. His track coach said, and I quote, "Remember his name, he's going to be famous." He had no idea. Jenner was one of my childhood heroes. I stayed in the same dorm as Jenner, Faunce Hall. The rumor was that it was the same room, but I have no idea if that was true or not. Jenner was married at the time I met him and no longer lived in the dorm.
I did not know any of this LDS/RLDS background of my family until I was 10 years old, until Graceland was recruiting my brother David for football. It's when I began to find out all of it. My mom was Catholic. I went to Catholic school in kindergarten and first grade, Immaculate Conception, before the school closed and I went to public schools. The nuns scared the hell out of me.
When I was in high school I was so confused by the semi-catholic, semi-RLDS things that I had semi-learned that I rejected all of it. The thing that bothered me the most, I suppose, was that my mom's first husband cheated on her and she divorced him and for that she couldn't receive communion in the Catholic church, but my alcoholic smoking dad was in the RLDS priesthood. It made no sense.
The RLDS has split multiple times since the 80s, mainly over whether the BoM is actual scripture, women in the priesthood, and LGBTQ.
Polds4OSU
Marshall
Sad and pathetic.
Just a reminder, there is already a Christian nationalism thread.
Yes, Moroni was an angel. The Mormon cosmology is very different.
Explain please
He was an angel of cosmetology so Im guessing he was a barber in his human life.
“As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be.”
Mormons believe that Jesus is the literal son of God and that Satan is his brother, that Satan rebelled against the plan for Jesus to be the agent of salvation and was expelled from heaven, that humans can be exalted to godhood.
Like I said, their cosmology is very different.
Polds4OSU
Marshall
Yeah.....their cosmology is VERY VERY VERY different. I used to invite the local missionaries in to my house every Wend to talk or just hang out and I would ask them questions and they would attempt to convert me.
I had heard of Kolob from others and I decided to ask them about it one day. It was two missionaries and an Elder and Below is an AI summary of what they told me.
Joseph Smith while traveling America in the 1800's ran into a traveling merchant where he purchased Egyptian papyri and mummies in 1835. Among the mummies was a hypocephalus, a small circular funerary disc placed under a mummy’s head for protection and for illuminating the deceased in the afterlife.Per their beliefs Joseph Smith was able to interpret the Hypocephalus hieroglyphics and determined it told the story of a Planet called Kolob.
Egyptologists, however, note that:
- The hypocephalus depicts Egyptian deities, especially Re, Hathor, and Amun‑Re.
- The central figure Smith calls Kolob is traditionally the god Re seated in a solar bark or sometimes the four‑headed ram god representing divine creative power.
Although “Kolob” is not Egyptian, parts of the cosmology described in Abraham 3 resemble ancient Near Eastern and Egyptian thought. Scholars argue that:a. Ancient Egyptian astronomy was geocentric
Both Egyptian and other ancient cultures imagined:- stars and heavenly bodies fixed in ordered spheres,
- higher/outer bodies governing the lower ones.
This hierarchical slow‑movement = higher authority principle matches Egyptian cosmological symbolism, where:
- encircling something connotes governing it,
- outer celestial bodies were associated with greater power.
b. The hypocephalus itself symbolizes divine light and cosmic order
Egyptian hypocephali were designed to:- bring heat/light to the deceased,
- represent cosmic creation,
- depict the daily rebirth of the sun.
- governance,
- proximity to the divine throne,
- cosmological hierarchy.
c. The symbolic parallel: Kolob as “the governing one”
Modern LDS‑affiliated Egyptologists sometimes argue that Kolob functions symbolically like:- the Sun (Ra)—the chief governing celestial body,
- the central star in an ordered cosmos.
These symbolic roles overlap with how Egyptians viewed the solar deity.
So in their summary what they told me was
Kolob is a celestial body somewhere in space. They describe it as a Giant very bright planet like object that is actually the Home Planet of God and Jesus or is Actually God (I was never clear on that). The Closer you are to God the closer to the Planet Kolob you get to reside in the afterlife. The further away from God you are on Earth, the further away from Kolob you will be in the afterlife. Kolob is the source of all light in the area of Space it is located and if you are a sinner , then you can't be in the light of Kolob in the afterlife and you are cast into the "Outer Darkness" (they don't believe in Hell).
And those beliefs are all based on Joseph Smith buying and translating old artifacts found in ancient Egyptian Mummies and Egyptian Papyrus Scrolls written in Hieroglyphics ...where he was able to buy these Egyptian artifacts and mummies from a traveling sales person
Ohh and the Garden of Eden is somewhere in the continental US
And Dinosaurs were an Alien species that traveled to Earth on an Asteroid and some of them were able to survive their asteroids impact on Earth and then multiplied and was an Alien species that Ruled Earth for a few Million Years before they died off because this wasn't their home Planet and they couldn't adapt enough to survive.
Some Native Americans are descendants of ancient Israelites and are called Lamanites and at one point they used to teach that ALL Native Americans were Lamanites. (For Many Years they taught that the natives darker skin was their marking as a Lamanite and through Righteousness God would turn their skin lighter until they turned White.)
At one time they taught that all Native Americans came from the Jewish Family called Lehi who was an Israelite prophet from Jerusalem in 600 BC and they left Israel right before the destruction of the Tower of Babylon, Built Ships on God's command and sailed across the Ocean and settled in America "The Promise Land"
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Pods. There are problems with the Nephites and Lamanites being in the Americas, namely the lack of Chohinine haploid diplotype among Native Americans, who have more DNA in common with Asians supporting the land-bridge theory.
Polds4OSU
Marshall
ohh I agree, I was just saying what they told me at the time (think 15 years ago), they were fully bought in on that idea as Gospel. They don't come by anymore and I've seen they have changed some of their teachings now that DNA technology has become a thing (the Mormon church is among some of the biggest players in using DNA Tech). I just don't know how they have changed the teachings.
Yeah, I haven’t seen Mormon missionaries in a very long time. Yes, they no longer believe ALL Native Americans descended from Lehi…
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