American Healthcare continues to go backward

If you have diabetes and you are facing all the negative consequences of diabetes: heart disease, amputation, blindness, kidney disease and dialysis, impotence, etc., which would you pay more for, a treatment which would reduce your risk of all of that but not to zero, or a cure which would reduce your risk of diabetic complications to zero?

You would be an absolute idiot to say, from a consumer standpoint, that the treatment is worth more, that you would pay more for the treatment than the cure. Again I say if I found a cure for diabetes tomorrow it would make me the richest person in the history of the world. It makes absolutely zero financial sense to not market a cure for diabetes.
I understand everything you are saying but it didn't answer the question. You are speaking from the consumer....yes I would rather cure my illness any illness than treat it long term. Big hole in this is said consumer still has to be able to afford it......you probably have a mortgage instead of paying cash despite the fact you are paying thousands in interest to level out the cost. Most people don't have house money laying around so they finance. If diabetes cure cost 200K less than 10% of America could afford it and we have more than the rest of the world. Less than 1% globally could.

From the business level again purely balance sheet. Long term consistent steady revenue is better in every way than single less predictable lump sums.

If the answer is pharma has a different model due to being driven by greater good or something then yes.....or if advancements occur so quickly you need to sew up markets as fast as you can then ok......I don't know the sector that well. But the concept of long term stable revenue streams being better than one time is universally accepted.
 
I understand everything you are saying but it didn't answer the question. You are speaking from the consumer....yes I would rather cure my illness any illness than treat it long term. Big hole in this is said consumer still has to be able to afford it......you probably have a mortgage instead of paying cash despite the fact you are paying thousands in interest to level out the cost. Most people don't have house money laying around so they finance. If diabetes cure cost 200K less than 10% of America could afford it and we have more than the rest of the world. Less than 1% globally could.

From the business level again purely balance sheet. Long term consistent steady revenue is better in every way than single less predictable lump sums.

If the answer is pharma has a different model due to being driven by greater good or something then yes.....or if advancements occur so quickly you need to sew up markets as fast as you can then ok......I don't know the sector that well. But the concept of long term stable revenue streams being better than one time is universally accepted.
And from an insurance standpoint, would you rather pay for the cure, or for a lifetime of treatment and some heart attacks and ICU, kidney transplants, dialysis, amputations, etc.?

You aren’t looking at all sides of the equation.
 
And from an insurance standpoint, would you rather pay for the cure, or for a lifetime of treatment and some heart attacks and ICU, kidney transplants, dialysis, amputations, etc.?

You aren’t looking at all sides of the equation.
I could be wrong…..insurance ain’t paying big amounts if there is any other option. Hell they don’t pay for things people need now.

Friend is paying out of pocket mid 5 digits every quarter for cancer treatment that her good by our standards insurance doesn’t deem it effective despite being under the care of the premier oncologist group in Texas.

If they are compelled pricing would be capped. Which would bring us back to the initial question. What makes the sector different?
 
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I could be wrong…..insurance ain’t paying big amounts if there is any other option. Hell they don’t pay for things people need now.

Friend is paying out of pocket mid 5 digits every quarter for cancer treatment that her good by our standards insurance doesn’t deem it effective despite being under the care of the premier oncologist group in Texas.

If they are compelled pricing would be capped. Which would bring us back to the initial question. What makes the sector different?
And she's paying out a fraction of what the insurance is paying. Multiply that by the number of patients. Now consider the cost of a single payment for a cure versus what the insurance company is paying over the lifetime of treatments that may be ultimately ineffective. You aren't considering all factors, donny. A cure is simply worth more than treatments to all concerned, to patients, to insurance companies, and to pharma.

Consider the case of antibiotics. They cure infections. If "we could make more money off of treatments than cures" then we would have treatments for infections and not cures. But that simply isn't the case.
 
This is the US healthcare system in a nutshell. In innovation, on the high end, we lead the world. The world looks to us to innovate. When an investment banker in Hong Kong needs an innovative cardiac procedure he comes to Oklahoma Medical Center because a cardiologist at Oklahoma Medical Center is teaching other cardiologists around the world how to perform a procedure he pioneered (I know this because I was a pharmacy student on cardiology when the investment banker from Hong Kong was admitted and the Chief of Cardiology from a hospital in New Jersey was there to learn the procedure). OTOH, we bankrupt people delivering healthcare to them. And some people we don't deliver even basic medical care to at all. When we were setting up the free clinic in Xenia we made the conscious decision to take patients that had Medicaid because their were zero; I repeat, zip, zero, zilch, nada providers that were taking new Medicaid patients. You could have Medicaid, have insurance, and still be out of luck finding a provider.

I'm not entirely sure that there is a way out of this for us. We innovate because we pay for it. What happened below at Penn doesn't happen without money, and the Trump administration is choking off the money. The recent executive order on pharma prices will choke off pharma innovation. It likely has to happen, I've said in this forum for years that we subsidize the rest of the world by paying higher prices here in the US and someone in Washington finally noticed that too. But you can't pretend you're going to institute price controls without an effect. A market solution would be better, but healthcare, pharmaceuticals is the least free market on the planet and freeing it is likely impossible.

What's the solution? We have to deliver a basic level of healthcare to everyone. My specialty is cardiovascular risk reduction, basically I treat cardiovascular risk factors trying to prevent heart attacks and strokes (and dialysis and kidney transplants). Some of the meds now I use aren't cheap, but compared to the cost of a heart attack, stroke, kidney failure, and the associated costs and complications, they are dirt cheap - and my services cost almost nothing compared to those things. Throw in other diseases where we know we can prevent sequelae with rigorous treatment and we have basically reached the point where we can no longer afford to not deliver some level of basic healthcare to everyone.

What's more, adverse drug effects cost the US healthcare system somewhere between $70-120 billion per year. That's billion with a B. Why? Because no one monitors for them. That's a big part of my job, every single time I talk with a patient we go through a list of potential adverse effects for every medication I'm responsible for. If they bring up a new symptom I carefully consider first whether or not it could be an adverse drug effect and attempt to rule it out. The way we pay pharmacists and pharmacies in communities is based on per prescription. Most of the money for the prescription goes to the PBM and does absolutely no clinical good. We need to change this and start paying pharmacists in the community to monitor for adverse effects and empower them to do so and pay for it with the money that's going to PBMs. We can no longer afford not to do this.

From https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/n...ient-treated-with-personalized-crispr-therapy
World's first patient treated with personalized CRISPR gene editing therapy at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia
Landmark study from CHOP and Penn Medicine showcases the power of customized gene editing therapy to treat patient with rare metabolic disease

May 15, 2025
Rebecca Ahrens-Nicklas, MD, PhD, and Kiran Musunuru, MD, PhD, standing together smiling.
CHOP’s Rebecca Ahrens-Nicklas, MD, PhD, and Penn Medicine’s Kiran Musunuru, MD, PhD. Credit: CHOP
PHILADELPHIA & NEW ORLEANS – In a historic medical breakthrough, a child diagnosed with a rare genetic disorder has been successfully treated with a customized CRISPR gene editing therapy by a team at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia (CHOP) and Penn Medicine. The infant, KJ, was born with a rare metabolic disease known as severe carbamoyl phosphate synthetase 1 (CPS1) deficiency. After spending the first several months of his life in the hospital, on a very restrictive diet, KJ received the first dose of his bespoke therapy in February 2025 between six and seven months of age. The treatment was administered safely, and he is now growing well and thriving.

The case is detailed today in a study published by The New England Journal of Medicine and was presented at the American Society of Gene & Cell Therapy Annual Meeting in New Orleans. This landmark finding could provide a pathway for gene editing technology to be successfully adapted to treat individuals with rare diseases for whom no medical treatments are available.

“Years and years of progress in gene editing and collaboration between researchers and clinicians made this moment possible, and while KJ is just one patient, we hope he is the first of many to benefit from a methodology that can be scaled to fit an individual patient’s needs,” said Rebecca Ahrens-Nicklas, MD, PhD, director of the Gene Therapy for Inherited Metabolic Disorders Frontier Program (GTIMD) at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia and an assistant professor of Pediatrics in the Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania.

CRISPR (clustered regularly interspaced short palindromic repeats)-based gene editing can precisely correct disease-causing variants in the human genome. Gene editing tools are incredibly complex and nuanced, and up to this point, researchers have built them to target more common diseases that affect tens or hundreds of thousands of patients, such as the two diseases for which there currently are U.S. Food and Drug Administration-approved therapies, sickle cell disease and beta thalassemia. However, relatively few diseases benefit from a “one-size-fits-all” gene editing approach since so many disease-causing variants exist. Even as the field advances, many patients with rare genetic diseases – collectively impacting millions of patients worldwide – have been left behind.

A Collaborative Effort
Doctors holding baby in hospital.
Rebecca Ahrens-Nicklas, MD, PhD, and Penn Medicine’s Kiran Musunuru, MD, PhD, visiting KJ at CHOP. Credit: CHOP
Ahrens-Nicklas and Kiran Musunuru, MD, PhD, the Barry J. Gertz Professor for Translational Research in Penn’s Perelman School of Medicine, who are co-corresponding authors on the published report, began collaborating to study the feasibility of creating customized gene editing therapies for individual patients in 2023, building upon many years of research into rare metabolic disorders, as well as the feasibility of gene editing to treat patients. Both are members of the NIH funded Somatic Cell Genome Editing Consortium, which supports collaborative genome editing research.

Ahrens-Nicklas and Musunuru decided to focus on urea cycle disorders. During the normal breakdown of proteins in the body, ammonia is naturally produced. Typically, our bodies know to convert the ammonia to urea and then excrete that urea through urination. However, a child with a urea cycle disorder lacks an enzyme in the liver needed to convert ammonia to urea. Ammonia then builds up to a toxic level, which can cause organ damage, particularly in the brain and the liver.

After years of preclinical research with similar disease-causing variants, Ahrens-Nicklas and Musunuru targeted KJ’s specific variant of CPS1, identified soon after his birth. Within six months, their team designed and manufactured a base editing therapy delivered via lipid nanoparticles to the liver in order to correct KJ’s faulty enzyme. In late February 2025, KJ received his first infusion of this experimental therapy, and since then, he has received follow-up doses in March and April 2025. In the newly published New England Journal of Medicine paper, the researchers, along with their academic and industry collaborators, describe the customized CRISPR gene editing therapy that was rigorously yet speedily developed for administration to KJ.

As of April 2025, KJ had received three doses of the therapy with no serious side effects. In the short time since treatment, he has tolerated increased dietary protein and needed less nitrogen scavenger medication. He also has been able to recover from certain typical childhood illnesses like rhinovirus without ammonia building up in his body. Longer follow-up is needed to fully evaluate the benefits of the therapy.

“While KJ will need to be monitored carefully for the rest of his life, our initial findings are quite promising,” Ahrens-Nicklas said.

“We want each and every patient to have the potential to experience the same results we saw in this first patient, and we hope that other academic investigators will replicate this method for many rare diseases and give many patients a fair shot at living a healthy life,” Musunuru said. “The promise of gene therapy that we’ve heard about for decades is coming to fruition, and it’s going to utterly transform the way we approach medicine.”

A Future for KJ
Mother and father posing with their baby boy.
Nicole, KJ, and Kyle Muldoon. Credit: CHOP
Typically, patients with CPS1 deficiency, like KJ, are treated with a liver transplant. However, for patients to receive a liver transplant, they need to be medically stable and old enough to handle such a major procedure. During that time, episodes of increased ammonia can put patients at risk for ongoing, lifelong neurologic damage or even prove fatal. Because of these threats to lifelong health, the researchers knew that finding new ways to treat patients who are too young and small to receive liver transplants would be lifechanging for families whose children faced this disorder.

“We would do anything for our kids, so with KJ, we wanted to figure out how we were going to support him and how we were going to get him to the point where he can do all the things a normal kid should be able to do,” his mother, Nicole Muldoon, said. “We thought it was our responsibility to help our child, so when the doctors came to us with their idea, we put our trust in them in the hopes that it could help not just KJ but other families in our position.”

“We’ve been in the thick of this since KJ was born, and our whole world’s been revolving around this little guy and his stay in the hospital,” his father, Kyle Muldoon, said. “We’re so excited to be able to finally be together at home so that KJ can be with his siblings, and we can finally take a deep breath.”

This study was supported by grants from the National Institutes of Health Somatic Cell Genome Editing Program (U01TR005355, U19NS132301), as well as additional National Institutes of Health grants (R35HL145203, U19NS132303, DP2CA281401, P01HL142494). In-kind contributions were made by Acuitas Therapeutics, Integrated DNA Technologies, Aldevron, and Danaher Corporation. Additional funding was provided by the CHOP Research Institute’s Gene Therapy for Inherited Metabolic Disorders Frontier Program.

Musunuru et al, “Patient-Specific In Vivo Gene Editing to Treat a Rare Genetic Disease.” N Engl J Med. Online May 15, 2025. DOI: 10.1056/NEJMoa2504747.
 
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The VA almost has it right. My services are free to patients regardless of their service connectedness or disability or ability to pay. But we still charge copays for the medications. We should give them all medications that reduce risk of sequelae, especially if they show progress towards actually getting their conditions under control. This should include obesity.
 
The VA almost has it right. My services are free to patients regardless of their service connectedness or disability or ability to pay. But we still charge copays for the medications. We should give them all medications that reduce risk of sequelae, especially if they show progress towards actually getting their conditions under control. This should include obesity.
I don't get most of my meds through the VA anymore because of copays. Why pay $15 to the government and their difficult to use billing system when I can order the same med through Mark Cuban and pay $6.50? Several times, the VA has claimed they sent me a bill then sent me a bill with a late fee after I had never received the first bill.
 
I don't get most of my meds through the VA anymore because of copays. Why pay $15 to the government and their difficult to use billing system when I can order the same med through Mark Cuban and pay $6.50? Several times, the VA has claimed they sent me a bill then sent me a bill with a late fee after I had never received the first bill.
We shouldn’t charge a copay at all to a veteran with an A1c of 6.3, LDL 63, BP 118/57. We should pat them on the back and reward them for doing the work.
 
Minnesota Republicans introduced another anti-vaccine bill. The first would fine anyone administering some types of life saving vaccines $500 a shot. This new one is written by a Florida hypnotist and conspiracy theorist, and it would outlaw types of life saving vaccines completely. These Republican anti-vax bills, based on false conspiracies, are downright crazy.

 
Minnesota Republicans introduced another anti-vaccine bill. The first would fine anyone administering some types of life saving vaccines $500 a shot. This new one is written by a Florida hypnotist and conspiracy theorist, and it would outlaw types of life saving vaccines completely. These Republican anti-vax bills, based on false conspiracies, are downright crazy.

The bill would actually ban the innovative gene therapy from Penn that I discussed above. The GOP is just nuts.

I got into discussion with a Luddite conspiracy theorist on FB who said “mRNA vaccines aren’t even really vaccines.” My response was, “was is a vaccine.” His response was. “It kills the virus.”

This is what we’re fighting against.
 
The bill would actually ban the innovative gene therapy from Penn that I discussed above. The GOP is just nuts.

I got into discussion with a Luddite conspiracy theorist on FB who said “mRNA vaccines aren’t even really vaccines.” My response was, “was is a vaccine.” His response was. “It kills the virus.”

This is what we’re fighting against.

So how this this get infiltrated into a national platform?

Its a big stretch from my taxes are too high to the government is putting microchips into us
 
When Michelle Obama did that people were irate over it. What changed?
The person proposing it now is an old white male Magastani instead of black female Democrat.

My bad….that was probably a rhetorical question wasn’t it? :sneaky:
 
The person proposing it now is an old white male Magastani instead of black female Democrat.

My bad….that was probably a rhetorical question wasn’t it? :sneaky:
You know, there are some things that RFK Jr. could do that might actually improve the health of the nation, like getting high fructose corn syrup out of everything we eat and getting kids to exercise. But instead all of the worst things he brings to the table, that's what he's focusing on.
 
You know, there are some things that RFK Jr. could do that might actually improve the health of the nation, like getting high fructose corn syrup out of everything we eat and getting kids to exercise. But instead all of the worst things he brings to the table, that's what he's focusing on.

Take what I said with a grain of salt. At the end of the day if we do something to make school lunches healthier it's a good thing regardless of who gets credit for it.

I had some hope for him based largely on some of the commentary here. If he focuses on improving the quality of our food supply and downplays the anti vax stuff, then he would end up being one of Trump's better cabinet selections. Sadly, so far it looks like hes doing the opposite of that.
 
US Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. told a Senate subcommittee that the federal government has “a team in Milwaukee” helping the city address a lead crisis in its schools. The city says that that’s not true and that it’s still not receiving requested aid from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s childhood lead poisoning experts to deal with the ongoing contamination. https://cnn.it/45gMDnm
 
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