US continues to go backward...

[HacklemanPoke]

You continue to attempt to make this an item about a particular political party. When I said no current elected official is serious about the debt (or for that matter SS)…I was talking ALL.

SS is an easier fix. Raise the income cap and you can soften by making the applicable % incremental as you go up.

Instead one party wants to raise the retirement age, allow kids to pull all nighters on school nights and some even want to all together do away w SS and Medicare.

 

[JTOSU]

SS is an easier fix. Raise the income cap and you can soften by making the applicable % incremental as you go up.

Instead one party wants to raise the retirement age, allow kids to pull all nighters on school nights and some even want to all together do away w SS and Medicare.

Why are you against raising the retirement age? That seems like a good start to help fortify SS for the long-term.

And why okay with a huge tax increase on people that will never see that money? SS already has a max monthly payout, I assume you don’t want to raise that. BTW, the income cap has been raised every year. The cap is already 43% higher than 8 years ago.

 

[HacklemanPoke]

Why are you against raising the retirement age? That seems like a good start to help fortify SS for the long-term.

And why okay with a huge tax increase on people that will never see that money? SS already has a max monthly payout, I assume you don’t want to raise that. BTW, the income cap has been raised every year. The cap is already 43% higher than 8 years ago.

First it’s not a huge tax increase if done incrementally as you go up. There are several ways to do this. Also the tax would be applicable on employers as well. There are certain ways you can mitigate this so as not to hurt small businesses. This would help keep the increase lower. It’s really simple math. We already have a system where certain income levels won’t ever see the total they paid in. I don’t think someone making $250,000 is going to miss increments of a % especially if you give them a raise in the amount they can contribute to a tax deferred retirement vehicle.

As to raising the age to draw. Yes I’m firmly in the camp against.

1) we made a promise so keep it.
2) if you raise it once, what keeps you from continuing to raise. Kinda like the boiling water scenario.
3) Rs have already shown they give 2 less than 2 craps about hourly wage workers and where do you think most people 65-69 will work?
4) I’m already a proponent of Medicare for All so what happens to everyone 65-69 when they lose Medicare and are forced into jobs w no healthcare? And while we are on this subject what do you think happens to the healthcare system that already is in need of reform when you burden it w more uninsured patients?

Also it’s not about raising the age to solve the SS solvency issue. It’s about finding workers to run the service economy as baby boomers retire and deportations/threat of deportations rise. Where do you think those workers come from? Kids and retirees. It’s why we are seeing regs eased on kids.

 

[JTOSU]

First it’s not a huge tax increase if done incrementally as you go up. There are several ways to do this. Also the tax would be applicable on employers as well. There are certain ways you can mitigate this so as not to hurt small businesses. This would help keep the increase lower. It’s really simple math. We already have a system where certain income levels won’t ever see the total they paid in. I don’t think someone making $250,000 is going to miss increments of a % especially if you give them a raise in the amount they can contribute to a tax deferred retirement vehicle.

As to raising the age to draw. Yes I’m firmly in the camp against.

1) we made a promise so keep it.
2) if you raise it once, what keeps you from continuing to raise. Kinda like the boiling water scenario.
3) Rs have already shown they give 2 less than 2 craps about hourly wage workers and where do you think most people 65-69 will work?
4) I’m already a proponent of Medicare for All so what happens to everyone 65-69 when they lose Medicare and are forced into jobs w no healthcare? And while we are on this subject what do you think happens to the healthcare system that already is in need of reform when you burden it w more uninsured patients?

Also it’s not about raising the age to solve the SS solvency issue. It’s about finding workers to run the service economy as baby boomers retire and deportations/threat of deportations rise. Where do you think those workers come from? Kids and retirees. It’s why we are seeing regs eased on kids.

1) I strongly disagree with you about it not being a huge tax increase. People have been getting a tax increase on FICA nearly every year over last 25 years. The proposals I’ve seen are huge tax increases.
2) I strongly disagree that someone making $250K is not going to miss the money they are taxed.
3) Interesting how some can be very generous with other people’s money

Raising age
1) We have done it before in 1983. I am unaware of making a promise that it won’t be raised. When did that occur?
2) Life expectancy is ~5 years longer than in 1983
3) Raising the age is absolutely about a solution for SS solvency

 

[HacklemanPoke]

1) I strongly disagree with you about it not being a huge tax increase. People have been getting a tax increase on FICA nearly every year over last 25 years. The proposals I’ve seen are huge tax increases.
2) I strongly disagree that someone making $250K is not going to miss the money they are taxed.
3) Interesting how some can be very generous with other people’s money

Raising age
1) We have done it before in 1983. I am unaware of making a promise that it won’t be raised. When did that occur?
2) Life expectancy is ~5 years longer than in 1983
3) Raising the age is absolutely about a solution for SS solvency

Please elaborate on how the fica tax has increased

 

[Pokey]

1) I strongly disagree with you about it not being a huge tax increase. People have been getting a tax increase on FICA nearly every year over last 25 years. The proposals I’ve seen are huge tax increases.
2) I strongly disagree that someone making $250K is not going to miss the money they are taxed.
3) Interesting how some can be very generous with other people’s money

Raising age
1) We have done it before in 1983. I am unaware of making a promise that it won’t be raised. When did that occur?
2) Life expectancy is ~5 years longer than in 1983
3) Raising the age is absolutely about a solution for SS solvency

Just for your information Biden promised no one making $400K and below would see a tax increase. My wife and I retired with 70 years of service to public education. Firemen and policemen are twenty years and out. Just how much longer should a non woke teacher work before they can retire and collect the social security they’ve paid into for forty plus years? We got by until we were eligible for SS and it helps greatly, and it’s our money we paid in. What’s your perfect retirement age ? What do you consider to be rich? You do realize the rich used to be taxed at 90% and there were still billionaires.

 

[JTOSU]

Please elaborate on how the fica tax has increased

Sorry. Assumed you were aware. The FICA tax maximum has increased every year since 2016. And 21 of last 24 years.

Can you elaborate on claim government promised not to raise SS age?

 

[HacklemanPoke]

Sorry. Assumed you were aware. The FICA tax maximum has increased every year since 2016. And 21 of last 24 years.

Can you elaborate on claim government promised not to raise SS age?

So the tax wasn’t raised it was only applied to a higher income. And while a person makumg 50000 has an effective SS tax rate of 6.2 a person making 200,000 has an effective tax rate of 5.2.

And don’t trot out the argument that the person making 200000 will never get back what they pay in bc there’s no guaranteed that neither will. Probability is higher on the oerson making 50.

Also there is no “official” contract on the age but damn that’s weak sauce of someone who will never rely on SS for their family to raise the age of people who paid in and worked their ass off to get to retirement age.

You try to make things simple but the reality is that things are way more nuanced.

 

[milehighpoke]

The American dream seems to be "work until you're old and decrepit and either can't afford to live your final years comfortably, or aren't healthy enough to enjoy life". How utterly depressing that "raising the retirement age" is even considered as a viable solution to anything. You can work yourself to the bone until you die, but I refuse to. I wasn't put on this planet just to work.

 

[JTOSU]

So the tax wasn’t raised it was only applied to a higher income.

That is why I specifically said the FICA "income cap has been raised every year". It is a higher tax payment every year -- no two ways about that.

And while a person makumg 50000 has an effective SS tax rate of 6.2 a person making 200,000 has an effective tax rate of 5.2.

And don’t trot out the argument that the person making 200000 will never get back what they pay in bc there’s no guaranteed that neither will. Probability is higher on the oerson making 50.

The person making $200K is paying much more in FICA. And if cap limits are significantly raised or eliminated...the payment will be MUCH more. And no, you are incorrect ...the "probability is higher on the person making 50K" to not get back what they paid. You may not be aware of this...but there is a monthly cap on the amount of SS benefits. It is currently less than $5K. There is no way a higher income individual gets a return with SS. (note: I am not against that. I want SS to continue and I want politicians to bolster it. But further increasing tax burdens on tax payers should not be only solution.

Also there is no “official” contract on the age but damn that’s weak sauce of someone who will never rely on SS for their family to raise the age of people who paid in and worked their ass off to get to retirement age.

You try to make things simple but the reality is that things are way more nuanced.

I want funds for SS. I've paid into the system for years. I've known for a long-time it is not a good return on my personal investment, but I understand and want SS to help be a lifeline for our seniors and disabled to live. That said, some of the proposals to eliminate, or drastically increase, income caps are not fair, IMO.
Yes, discussing raising the retirement age should be on the table. When SS was first brought into law, the average lifespan of a male was 61 and a female was 65. It is now 75 and 80. Raising the age a small amount combined with a slight adjustment with FICA caps is the best start, IMO.

And yes, I agree it is much more nuanced than what can be communicated in a half-duplex manner of a message board.

 

[mugatu]

If you think Biden has been serious about reducing debt…then I don’t know how to address that. I hope you realize he has not been. A solution to take more money from the people that already pay the taxes is just a solution to continue spending growth. Half of Americans pay 98% of income taxes. Top 10% pay 76% of taxes.

Our debt problem is not revenues. We are at historic highs for income tax revenues…but our government spends like drunken sailors. If our 2023 spendings was the same as 2019…we would have had a budget surplus of over +$500B last fiscal year!

Our elected officials have poor fiscal responsibility. They spend because that helps them keep power.

Where do you want money pulled from, what should get less funding? Just curious

 

[HacklemanPoke]

That is why I specifically said the FICA "income cap has been raised every year". It is a higher tax payment every year -- no two ways about that.


The person making $200K is paying much more in FICA. And if cap limits are significantly raised or eliminated...the payment will be MUCH more. And no, you are incorrect ...the "probability is higher on the person making 50K" to not get back what they paid. You may not be aware of this...but there is a monthly cap on the amount of SS benefits. It is currently less than $5K. There is no way a higher income individual gets a return with SS. (note: I am not against that. I want SS to continue and I want politicians to bolster it. But further increasing tax burdens on tax payers should not be only solution.


I want funds for SS. I've paid into the system for years. I've known for a long-time it is not a good return on my personal investment, but I understand and want SS to help be a lifeline for our seniors and disabled to live. That said, some of the proposals to eliminate, or drastically increase, income caps are not fair, IMO.
Yes, discussing raising the retirement age should be on the table. When SS was first brought into law, the average lifespan of a male was 61 and a female was 65. It is now 75 and 80. Raising the age a small amount combined with a slight adjustment with FICA caps is the best start, IMO.

And yes, I agree it is much more nuanced than what can be communicated in a half-duplex manner of a message board.

So you advocate for a regressive income tax?

 

[mugatu]

1) I strongly disagree with you about it not being a huge tax increase. People have been getting a tax increase on FICA nearly every year over last 25 years. The proposals I’ve seen are huge tax increases.
2) I strongly disagree that someone making $250K is not going to miss the money they are taxed.
3) Interesting how some can be very generous with other people’s money

Raising age
1) We have done it before in 1983. I am unaware of making a promise that it won’t be raised. When did that occur?
2) Life expectancy is ~5 years longer than in 1983
3) Raising the age is absolutely about a solution for SS solvency

Is that raise tired to inflation? If it doesn't raise every year it is effectively dropped.

 

[JTOSU]

Is that raise tired to inflation? If it doesn't raise every year it is effectively dropped.

FICA income cap? Yes, reason why the cap has increased 15% over last two years.

Medicare tax (2.9%), however, does not have an income limit.

 

[JTOSU]

So you advocate for a regressive income tax?

I didn't say that. I think you might be conflating income tax and SS taxes.

With SS taxes everyone pays in. There is a cap on maximum contributed every year from an individual and a cap on maximum paid every year to an individual. Even at the current contribution cap, a high earner will likely see >~40% of the funds contributed to SS. Raising that cap will further reduce that percentage. Unless the cap on the maximum paid to is also increased ---- and the proposals I read did not include that.

 

[HacklemanPoke]

I didn't say that. I think you might be conflating income tax and SS taxes.

With SS taxes everyone pays in. There is a cap on maximum contributed every year from an individual and a cap on maximum paid every year to an individual. Even at the current contribution cap, a high earner will likely see >~40% of the funds contributed to SS. Raising that cap will further reduce that percentage. Unless the cap on the maximum paid to is also increased ---- and the proposals I read did not include that.

Seriously???? Thanks for “JTSplaining” that.

Keep current cap adjustments in place and then when your salary comes out of the donut say at 250k remove the cap. So for 24 you pay nothing between 168 and 250 then at 250+ you pay. Same for employers. All on the SS portion. Then raise the tax deferred individual contribution limits on IRAs and 401ks to “help” offset those making 250.

There is no guarantee anyone who pays a dime into SS will live to see the full ROI. If you make more than 150k and you are counting on a full ROI to fund your retirement you are an idiot and just poor financial management.

What I don’t get is what do people think will happen to our economy if you eliminate SS payments? Suck those $ out of the economy and the Great Depression will look like a party.

 

[JTOSU]

Seriously???? Thanks for “JTSplaining” that.

Keep current cap adjustments in place and then when your salary comes out of the donut say at 250k remove the cap. So for 24 you pay nothing between 168 and 250 then at 250+ you pay. Same for employers. All on the SS portion. Then raise the tax deferred individual contribution limits on IRAs and 401ks to “help” offset those making 250.

There is no guarantee anyone who pays a dime into SS will live to see the full ROI. If you make more than 150k and you are counting on a full ROI to fund your retirement you are an idiot and just poor financial management.

What I don’t get is what do people think will happen to our economy if you eliminate SS payments? Suck those $ out of the economy and the Great Depression will look like a party.

Who said anything about eliminating SS payments?? I want SS to continue and want serious discussion on debt.

My point is that we should not continue only looking at taxing taxpayers more for solutions. It certainly can be a portion of the solution. Your idea above, for example. I personally 100% love idea of higher deferral limits and/or 401ks, but I haven’t seen a serious proposal that included that.

But other solutions need to be also on the table. We need brave politicians that don’t just look short term.
For debt, we need serious discussions on reducing the incredible growth of government spending. For lengthening SS, increasing retirement age is a viable option.

 

[mugatu]

Who said anything about eliminating SS payments?? I want SS to continue and want serious discussion on debt.

My point is that we should not continue only looking at taxing taxpayers more for solutions. It certainly can be a portion of the solution. Your idea above, for example. I personally 100% love idea of higher deferral limits and/or 401ks, but I haven’t seen a serious proposal that included that.

But other solutions need to be also on the table. We need brave politicians that don’t just look short term.
For debt, we need serious discussions on reducing the incredible growth of government spending. For lengthening SS, increasing retirement age is a viable option.

What portion of gov spending needs to be cut? What programs get chopped?

 

[Pokey]

Tell me why the debt was never even spoken of during the Trump administration? Or am I just misremembering. I seem to remember that ginormous tax cut wasn’t funded in any way. But when the Democrats are in office EVERYTHING must be offset with deep cuts.

 

[JTOSU]

What portion of gov spending needs to be cut? What programs get chopped?

Government spending growth has been out of control. As I mentioned earlier, if we could have frozen spending levels of just 4 years ago, we would have had a budget surplus this fiscal year. Slowing rate of spending growth has to occur.

In the net neutrality posts we spoke about government grants to subsidize telecommunications networks. Literally hundreds of billions of dollars.

I really like what the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget has put together. CRFB is a non-partisan group. Now they have some revenue increases I don’t particularly like, but there will have to be a give and take to even get close to reducing deficit growth. Their thoughts and ideas are very reasonable IMO.

CFRB boasts some impressive board members: Leon Panetta, Erskine Bowles, John Kasich, Saxby Chambliss, Alan Simpson, and Oklahoman Dave McCurdy
https://www.crfb.org/papers/crfb-fiscal-blueprint-reducing-debt-and-inflation