ICE

[GratefulPoke]

It's just my idea of faith. I thought we were talking about religion in general not just Christianity.

We are, but what you are describing is not really faith. It is falsifiable (it can be proven to be true/false). Religion is unfalsifiable by nature and what you described is not Christian faith, Islamic faith, Jewish faith, Hindu faith or budddhist faith (in fact most sects of the latter aren't really religions either).

Which is my point. I think believing things without evidence which is what most mean when they say faith is a hindrance, not a help.

 

[Vakarian74]

No, but is what you are describing faith? It does not sound like Christian faith IMO.

I also see that he only talked about his loved ones. That's another thing I see in this country we only care if there is a direct contact with us or some one we know and like. But Oklahomans in particular love to talk about community. We have no community any more

 

[Vakarian74]

No, but I thought this board thought that ICE=racist.

So simple minded.

 

[Polds4OSU]

The image isn’t what happened. The creator even tried to have AI put a gun in Pretti’s hand, which is a gross misrepresentation of what happened. Pretti was unarmed.

I don't see anyone claiming it's real. It's just art. But art can be powerful and THAT is powerful art

For example
Here is an art piece, we don't know what the Creator of their work changed or removed or what was real or not, but we know how powerful the outcome of this day was

 

[Polds4OSU]

I also see that he only talked about his loved ones. That's another thing I see in this country we only care if there is a direct contact with us or some one we know and like. But Oklahomans in particular love to talk about community. We have no community any more

The basis of the Christian Faith...The Bible....says that you should show care , compassion and love to everyone of God's children and SPECIFICALLY tells us to do that for the foreigners on our lands ... SPECIFICALLY

 

[GratefulPoke]

The basis of the Christian Faith...The Bible....says that you should show care , compassion and love to everyone of God's children and SPECIFICALLY tells us to do that for the foreigners on our lands ... SPECIFICALLY

It also calls for genocide in at least 3 passages too (Deuteronomy 7, Deuteronomy 20, 1 Samuel 15)

Hence my issue with it being the source of any coherent morality.

 

[osuwhit]

I don't see anyone claiming it's real. It's just art. But art can be powerful and THAT is powerful art

For example
Here is an art piece, we don't know what the Creator of their work changed or removed or what was real or not, but we know how powerful the outcome of this day was

View attachment 17852

The top image was originally created by and shared in far right circles because it shows Pretti having a gun in his right hand.

I agree with your art point. I wish the art would depict what happened on camera a little better than the AI image.

 

[RxCowboy]

Religion is about power, specifically power over others and power over death. This is the common strain throughout all religions. Additionally, most religion is primarily used to justify ones own thoughts, opinions & existence. To used as a bludgeon to "beat" others. A divine thumbs up thus addition additional weight to one's opinions & actions. It demands almost nothing to its followers, but nearly everything for its targets and outgroups. Its a shell game with the ego, nothing more.

It is rarely introspective and applied inward. Don't believe me? Look how common contemplative Christianity is here in the US. It is almost non-existent.

Self-examination and introspection in general are pretty rare. Most people who go to therapy do so for validation and not to improve themselves. Look at all the women whose exes are “narcissists”. Narcissistic personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder together make up less than 5% of the population.

When #1 and I were separated and going through counseling we met for dinner one night and she asked about getting back together. I asked her, “What needs of mine have you realized that you haven’t met?” She gave me a deer in the headlights look and said, “Needs?”

The redhead and I were listening to “Love and Respect” by Emerson Eggerich early in our marriage. She enjoyed the parts on husbands loving their wives. But when we got to the parts on respecting the husband she said “this is just a bunch of ‘rah rah’ for you” and quit participating.

That’s the way most people are. Even at their most screwed up examining themselves is difficult, painful and messy and they don’t want to do it, whether religious or not. So they never fix what’s wrong with them, they carry it right into their next relationship or whatever.

And yes, of course people use religion to structure power, though it is contrary to the teachings of Jesus. But politics, economics, society, etc. is all about structuring power and everyone fights for power within society. Everyone.

As for me, I’ve purposefully dis-identified with evangelicalism because of the conflation of political power and Christianity. But when I look at Reddit I see 100 messages a day saying “you can’t be Christian and MAGA” and often these are coming from people who claim to be atheists, and this too is power structuring, as was your message that I am responding to.

 

[Polds4OSU]

Border chief targets Republicans in wake of Minneapolis shooting​

“Someone might want to take Greg Bovino's phone away from him,” wrote Max Steele, the senior communications director for a Florida-based gun safety advocacy organization, in a social media post on X. “He's spending his afternoon picking fights with GOP Senators, GOP House members, and gun owners on twitter.”

link

MSN

 

[TheMonkey]

What Trump has done is allow these people to say what we’ve known they have felt for years, but in the past there was enough social pressure to make them bite their tongues.

That man is far less Christian than I am. I believe the basic tenets of Christianity make a lot of sense and mostly follow them. My issue is lack of faith. He claims faith in something that he doesn’t follow. I think that is worse.

Religion is about power, specifically power over others and power over death. This is the common strain throughout all religions. Additionally, most religion is primarily used to justify ones own thoughts, opinions & existence. To used as a bludgeon to "beat" others. A divine thumbs up thus addition additional weight to one's opinions & actions. It demands almost nothing to its followers, but nearly everything for its targets and outgroups. Its a shell game with the ego, nothing more.

It is rarely introspective and applied inward. Don't believe me? Look how common contemplative Christianity is here in the US. It is almost non-existent. There are virtually zero evangelical expressions for it, and very few orthodox & catholic expressions for it outside of the nearly dead monastic orders.

It is why I think religion overall is a net negative in our society. It helps people avoid dealing with their issues is used to justify their own shortcomings but to crucify others for those same things. Instead of encouraging responsibility, It shirks responsibility. Original sin? You were born with it. Harm someone? Don't worry, Jesus forgives and he already died as a human sacrifice, a scapegoat for you. Insofar one can even identify a christian ethic, it is found wanting IMO.

I respect what Rob Schenck is doing but he is almost completely alone in his action. And my prediction is that he will unfortunately remain so.

Self-examination and introspection in general are pretty rare. Most people who go to therapy do so for validation and not to improve themselves. Look at all the women whose exes are “narcissists”. Narcissistic personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder together make up less than 5% of the population.

When #1 and I were separated and going through counseling we met for dinner one night and she asked about getting back together. I asked her, “What needs of mine have you realized that you haven’t met?” She gave me a deer in the headlights look and said, “Needs?”

The redhead and I were listening to “Love and Respect” by Emerson Eggerich early in our marriage. She enjoyed the parts on husbands loving their wives. But when we got to the parts on respecting the husband she said “this is just a bunch of ‘rah rah’ for you” and quit participating.

That’s the way most people are. Even at their most screwed up examining themselves is difficult, painful and messy and they don’t want to do it, whether religious or not. So they never fix what’s wrong with them, they carry it right into their next relationship or whatever.

And yes, of course people use religion to structure power, though it is contrary to the teachings of Jesus. But politics, economics, society, etc. is all about structuring power and everyone fights for power within society. Everyone.

As for me, I’ve purposefully dis-identified with evangelicalism because of the conflation of political power and Christianity. But when I look at Reddit I see 100 messages a day saying “you can’t be Christian and MAGA” and often these are coming from people who claim to be atheists, and this too is power structuring, as was your message that I am responding to.

I know we’re going off the rails here, but I would love to discuss this further. Not sure if there would be an appropriate thread to do so. I think there are some valid voices outside of evangelical Christianity who advocate for the powerless and marginalized (e.c. mystic Richard Rohr and author Kristin Du Mez). They embrace suffering, knowing it requires them to accept they are not in control of anything but themselves.

This is one reason I left evangelical Christianity and we joined the United Methodist Church. It’s much less about personal “holiness” and increasing membership in a celestial country club. More about accepting and loving others, plus serving those in need. This isn’t to promote UMC, it to say there are others out there trying to make Christianity—and humanity—a net positive.

 

[Polds4OSU]

A powerful statement from Matt Moberg, the Chaplain of the Minnesota Timberwolves:

“If you’re a church posting
prayers for peace and unity today
while my city bleeds in the street,
miss me with that softness you only wear when it costs you nothing.

Don’t dress avoidance up as holiness.
Don’t call silence “peacemaking.”
Don’t light a candle and think it substitutes for showing up.

Tonight an ICE agent took a photo of me next to my car, looked me in the eye and told me, “We’ll be seeing you soon.”

Not metaphor.
Not hyperbole.
A threat dressed up in a badge and a paycheck.

Peace isn’t what you ask for
when the boot is already on someone’s neck.
Peace is what the powerful ask for
when they don’t want to be interrupted.

Unity isn’t neutral.
Unity that refuses to name violence
is just loyalty to the ones holding the weapons.

Stop using scripture like chloroform.
Stop calling your fear “wisdom.”
Stop pretending Jesus was crucified
because he preached good vibes and personal growth.

You don’t get to quote scripture like a lullaby
while injustice stays wide awake.
You don’t get to ask God to “heal the land”
if you won’t even look at the wound.

There is a kind of peace that only exists
because it refuses to tell the truth.
That peace is a lie.
And lies don’t grow anything worth saving.

The scriptures you love weren’t written to keep things calm. They were written to set things right.
And sometimes the most faithful thing you can do
is stop praying around the pain and start standing inside it.

If that makes you uncomfortable - good.”

[Original from the author found here:

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

]

 

[PF5]

 

[PF5]

I know we’re going off the rails here, but I would love to discuss this further. Not sure if there would be an appropriate thread to do so. I think there are some valid voices outside of evangelical Christianity who advocate for the powerless and marginalized (e.c. mystic Richard Rohr and author Kristin Du Mez). They embrace suffering, knowing it requires them to accept they are not in control of anything but themselves.

This is one reason I left evangelical Christianity and we joined the United Methodist Church. It’s much less about personal “holiness” and increasing membership in a celestial country club. More about accepting and loving others, plus serving those in need. This isn’t to promote UMC, it to say there are others out there trying to make Christianity—and humanity—a net positive.

start a thread on this Politics Forum...we don't have much separation of Church and State anymore...

 

[Rob B.]

So simple minded.

You ask me to put you on ignore, yet still reply with your juvenile personal attacks. I said my loved ones because I have faith I can protect them. I have no control of the actions of strangers and extremists like yourself.

Continue with your name calling, and don't put me on ignore, please, you'd have little to no contribution if you did.

 

[steross]

No, but I thought this board thought that ICE=racist.

I highly doubt in an organization the size of ICE that everyone is racist. If someone here made that claim I would disagree with it.

Now, the administration leadership driving what ICE and CBP does? Proven racist. Just undeniable fact.

Stephen Miller’s Affinity for White Nationalism Revealed in Leaked Emails

In the run-up to the 2016 election, White House senior policy adviser Stephen Miller promoted white nationalist literature, pushed racist immigration stories.

www.splcenter.org

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/13/politics/katie-mchugh-stephen-miller

 

[cowboyinexile]

 

[TheMonkey]

I highly doubt in an organization the size of ICE that everyone is racist. If someone here made that claim I would disagree with it.

Now, the administration leadership driving what ICE and CBP does? Proven racist. Just undeniable fact.

Stephen Miller’s Affinity for White Nationalism Revealed in Leaked Emails

In the run-up to the 2016 election, White House senior policy adviser Stephen Miller promoted white nationalist literature, pushed racist immigration stories.

www.splcenter.org

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/13/politics/katie-mchugh-stephen-miller

Yep. And documentation of Miller’s racism goes even further back than what the Events at Duke that article shares. He espoused racists beliefs in writing while in high school at Santa Monica.

 

[Vakarian74]

You ask me to put you on ignore, yet still reply with your juvenile personal attacks. I said my loved ones because I have faith I can protect them. I have no control of the actions of strangers and extremists like yourself.

Continue with your name calling, and don't put me on ignore, please, you'd have little to no contribution if you did.

You're the the one that has been in lock step with a fascist and racist regime. You share blatant racist memes and have been in the FAFO about murdered US citizens(yes I know you have said they shouldn't have been but then also have blamed them also.) so you calling me a an extremist if effing hilarious. And I said put me on ignore if you don't want to read what I write. You still have that ability snowflake.

 

[steross]

You're the the one that has been in lock step with a fascist and racist regime. You share blatant racist memes and have been in the FAFO about murdered US citizens(yes I know you have said they shouldn't have been but then also have blamed them also.) so you calling me a an extremist if effing hilarious. And I said put me on ignore if you don't want to read what I write. You still have that ability snowflake.

You know what is unfortunate. I would guess if asked to complete a properly written and unbiased questionnaire about your beliefs on the best way forward for the country on most of these issues, I suspect you are @Rob B. would not be all that far apart. I think you would have differences, but not differences so drastic that either of you would be like "WTF, that guy is crazy."

But, despite that, in modern America, we essentially have to pick a side. Even if you avoid picking a side, someone pigeonholes you into one based on a few things you say.

And, once on a side, people then sort of defend the turf. Similar to OU fans defending Joe Mixon, even though I know many of them are not in favor of a huge man breaking a woman's face.

I sometimes wonder why @Rob B. defends the side he does the way he does. Often, if reading between the lines of what he says, it isn't really far off most of us and probably right in line with others. But, the system pushes us to a side, and here we are, divided, hateful, and not really proud of the nation that years ago was so bad-assed to say that you are from. In 1986 as an 18-year-old I took my first trip to Australia. I felt like a rock-star. "Oh, please talk to me!" "What's America like!" etc. That shit's gone.

 

[GratefulPoke]

Self-examination and introspection in general are pretty rare. Most people who go to therapy do so for validation and not to improve themselves. Look at all the women whose exes are “narcissists”. Narcissistic personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder together make up less than 5% of the population.

When #1 and I were separated and going through counseling we met for dinner one night and she asked about getting back together. I asked her, “What needs of mine have you realized that you haven’t met?” She gave me a deer in the headlights look and said, “Needs?”

The redhead and I were listening to “Love and Respect” by Emerson Eggerich early in our marriage. She enjoyed the parts on husbands loving their wives. But when we got to the parts on respecting the husband she said “this is just a bunch of ‘rah rah’ for you” and quit participating.

That’s the way most people are. Even at their most screwed up examining themselves is difficult, painful and messy and they don’t want to do it, whether religious or not. So they never fix what’s wrong with them, they carry it right into their next relationship or whatever.

And yes, of course people use religion to structure power, though it is contrary to the teachings of Jesus. But politics, economics, society, etc. is all about structuring power and everyone fights for power within society. Everyone.

As for me, I’ve purposefully dis-identified with evangelicalism because of the conflation of political power and Christianity. But when I look at Reddit I see 100 messages a day saying “you can’t be Christian and MAGA” and often these are coming from people who claim to be atheists, and this too is power structuring, as was your message that I am responding to.

I agree that self-examination and introspection are rare. It is uncomfortable and painful at times. But it is absolutely necessary and it is impossible to develop character or a consistent ethic without it.

Your bolded statement I agree with also. This idea though, that politics, economics, society, etc. is all about structuring power and everyone fights for power within them is essentially the tenets of critical theory. Do you agree that critical theory can be a useful lens?

Religion often makes the case that it helps people live better lives. On average, I don't think that it is true, its most common use is to justify what one is already doing and how one is already treating others. I don't think that any ideology with chosen people, whether that be by ethnicity, nation, race, faith or belief system leads to anything worthwhile.

That being said, I can see it still does for some people and I respect people that to walk that walk and put it on the line. I appreciate you sharing your experience and being willing to speak out against what is going on now both in evangelicalism and on the right. We need more people like you.