ICE

[JTOSU]

Do you really buy this drivel?

Where was the violence on the part of the protester?

The author closes his short essay ny sayong of someone is non violently blocking the road, he is going to assault them.

The supreme court has ruled multiple times one doesnt need a permit to protest. Its a first amemdement right.

Do you support the author in curtailing the first amendment of people you dont agree with? Because it sure sounds like it.

Can you please highlight where the author talked about curtailing the first amendment?

The 1st amendment protects the freedom of speech of citizens, but it is not absolute and subject to reasonable restrictions. A restriction we should all be happy about is the ability to restrict or impede the movement of others. Blocking traffic illegally takes away the rights of others. If someone wants to block traffic, then permits are required.

If you want to argue that in the particular situation she wasn’t blocking traffic, that is a reasonable argument (and I probably agree). But over the last several years, protests have certainly impeded on the rights of others by blocking traffic. That should not be a left/right issue…it is wrong.

 

[steross]

The Democrat and Republican parties are too far left or too far right to satisfy the large centrist democrat or republican in the middle, but those people are forced to choose one side or the other if they want to make a choice at all. That’s why I voted libertarian in the last reelections. I don’t like either party platform right now.

Saying "far-right" simplifies a complex issue too much. I agree with you there is nowhere for the normal people to go. What I don't agree is that a conservative should support Trump and MAGA. They are the farthest thing from true conservativism.

MAGA is for huge federal involvement in all aspect of our lives. They are simply authoritarian, not conservatism.

 

[Rob B.]

Can you please highlight where the author talked about curtailing the first amendment?

The 1st amendment protects the freedom of speech of citizens, but it is not absolute and subject to reasonable restrictions. A restriction we should all be happy about is the ability to restrict or impede the movement of others. Blocking traffic illegally takes away the rights of others. If someone wants to block traffic, then permits are required.

If you want to argue that in the particular situation she wasn’t blocking traffic, that is a reasonable argument (and I probably agree). But over the last several years, protests have certainly impeded on the rights of others by blocking traffic. That should not be a left/right issue…it is wrong.

He doesn't. It's just more end around b.s. to distract from the fact that she was breaking the law.

And as far as grabbing them by the ears, they go ape shit about it being assault instead of reading the part about "as their mother's should have done". There is no making them understand something they refuse and deny.

 

[GratefulPoke]

Saying "far-right" simplifies a complex issue too much. I agree with you there is nowhere for the normal people to go. What I don't agree is that a conservative should support Trump and MAGA. They are the farthest thing from true conservativism.

MAGA is for huge federal involvement in all aspect of our lives. They are simply authoritarian, not conservatism.

I really don't buy the centrist arguments.

We have two parties in the US, one wants to perpetuate the status quo with slightly different window dressings. They are a conservative party, especially on economics.

We have a second party that is reactionary. They want to drag us back to the 1950s. Some in that party would like to drag us back to well earlier than that.

Outside of a couple of politicians, we don't have even a semblance of a left in the US. And the little bit of left we have is performative and self-serving caught up on certain social issues, almost solely. Until we have a real left in the US to address the material needs of the common man, we are going to struggle with fascism.

 

[Rob B.]

Do you really buy this drivel?

Where was the violence on the part of the protester?

The author closes his short essay by saying of someone is non violently blocking the road, he is going to assault them.

The supreme court has ruled multiple times one doesnt need a permit to protest. Its a first amendment right.

Do you support the author in curtailing the first amendment of people you dont agree with? Because it sure sounds like it.

When the Tulsa protests were going on a few years back and they were blocking the interstate (some of them using their children to help them) and they attacked a man and his family pulling a horse trailer. I bet you wanted that man prosecuted for running over a protester.

 

[steross]

I really don't buy the centrist arguments.

We have two parties in the US, one wants to perpetuate the status quo with slightly different window dressings. They are a conservative party, especially on economics.

We have a second party that is reactionary. They want to drag us back to the 1950s. Some in that party would like to drag us back to well earlier than that.

Outside of a couple of politicians, we don't have even a semblance of a left in the US. And the little bit of left we have is performative and self-serving caught up on certain social issues, almost solely. Until we have a real left in the US to address the material needs of the common man, we are going to struggle with fascism.

Where does the Reaganite vote?

 

[OrangeFan69]

 

[GratefulPoke]

When the Tulsa protests were going on a few years back and they were blocking the interstate (some of them using their children to help them) and they attacked a man and his family pulling a horse trailer. I bet you wanted that man prosecuted for running over a protester.

This is a straw man, but I will answer it anyway.

I am not familiar with that instance. But if protesters physically attacked someone, that is outside of the protections of the first amendment and they are in the wrong.

Did that happen on Thursday?

 

[steross]

When the Tulsa protests were going on a few years back and they were blocking the interstate (some of them using their children to help them) and they attacked a man and his family pulling a horse trailer. I bet you wanted that man prosecuted for running over a protester.

 

[GratefulPoke]

Where does the Reaganite vote?

I mean, Reaganomics got us into this mess. Since Reagan, we have had almost exclusively neoliberal economic policies with Clinton, Bush and Obama.

They are why we have such a wealth discrepancy in the US, and rural areas in particular have been left behind. They have watched themselves and their families get poorer on average for the last 40 to 50 years and on top of that, they have been told by those making that disproportionate amount of wealth how to treat others, how to talk and how to live. That is going to build a lot of resentment, which is what we see today.

We don't get this amount of wealth and power stratification without Reaganomics. It was good for the economy in the short term, but it consumed the foundation of why the US was successful in the first place. The damage was just not apparent until now.

This mutated form of capitalism acts in opposition to the free market. When populace are not big enough consumers for them, they switch to governments and other companies as their primary customers. Many industries are monopolies or are near monopolies with companies colluding with one another. We are starting to see this with tech in particular, but it holds up with other sectors too.

We need a trust buster to get in there and start breaking up these companies at minimum.

 

[Rob B.]

View attachment 17344

Nothing straw about it. Impeding is impeding.

 

[OrangeFan69]

I am not familiar with that instance. But if protesters physically attacked someone, that is outside of the protections of the first amendment and they are in the wrong.

During George Floyd protests (they were looting in LA, but basically protests in Tulsa)

The bozos there blocked the I-44 at Riverside, and a guy with a horse trailer panicked and hit people and the crowd lost their mud.

Personally, I grew up playing Frogger so I understand the consequences of playing in traffic; and even if I agree with you protesting on a freeway is absurd. Cool Instagram photo, but stupid in practice.

I don't blame the horse trailer guy, it didn't seem like he was aiming for them, he was trying to move horses and the crowd came to the traffic and he got caught up in the whirlwind and panicked.

 

[steross]

I mean, Reaganomics got us into this mess. Since Reagan, we have had almost exclusively neoliberal economic policies with Clinton, Bush and Obama.

They are why we have such a wealth discrepancy in the US, and rural areas in particular have been left behind. They have watched themselves and their families get poorer on average for the last 40 to 50 years and on top of that, they have been told by those making that disproportionate amount of wealth how to treat others, how to talk and how to live. That is going to build a lot of resentment, which is what we see today.

I'm not advocating, just saying. The type of voter that is for small government (I know, that part was faked), low taxes, free market when able, and socially conservative just does not have a place. While I agree with you that the democratic party is closer because the differences are minor policy things not a complete change in the system and ethics, I just see those people sort of lost right now.

 

[steross]

Nothing straw about it. Impeding is impeding.

Ok, when Putin took over Russia instead of the budding democracy that was trying to start, I bet you were for it.

Authoritarian is authoritarian.

Strawman is claiming an argument that was not made. It is not absolved by finding a similarity.

 

[Rob B.]

During George Floyd protests (they were looting in LA, but basically protests in Tulsa)

The bozos there blocked the I-44 at Riverside, and a guy with a horse trailer panicked and hit people and the crowd lost their mud.

Personally, I grew up playing Frogger so I understand the consequences of playing in traffic; and even if I agree with you protesting on a freeway is absurd. Cool Instagram photo, but stupid in practice.

I don't blame the horse trailer guy, it didn't seem like he was aiming for them, he was trying to move horses and the crowd came to the traffic and he got caught up in the whirlwind and panicked.

They also were trying to let his horses out into the highway...

 

[Rob B.]

Ok, when Putin took over Russia instead of the budding democracy that was trying to start, I bet you were for it.

Authoritarian is authoritarian.

Strawman is claiming an argument that was not made. It is not absolved by finding a similarity.

Blocking a roadway as a means of protest is galatically stupid and can obviously get you unalived.

 

[GratefulPoke]

I'm not advocating, just saying. The type of voter that is for small government (I know, that part was faked), low taxes, free market when able, and socially conservative just does not have a place. While I agree with you that the democratic party is closer because the differences are minor policy things not a complete change in the system and ethics, I just see those people sort of lost right now.

Yeah, they have lost power for sure. But if you think that small government will get us out of this mess, I cannot agree with that. We have to have as powerful of a government as the most powerful corporations to break them up and reduce their power in our everyday lives.

We see today the product of what "laissez faire" economics results in, and why it was a mistake. A democracy or republic cannot survive these levels of wealth and power stratification. It will destroy it and authoritarianism will ensue.

 

[oks10]

I'll just waiting for ICE defenders to explain how the agents actions don't violate this DHS policy or the DOJ policy it's based on... Until that happens, it looks like the agent violated procedures which directly led to the her death. Her making bad decisions don't justify this agents actions.

 

[cowboyinexile]

Blocking a roadway as a means of protest is galatically stupid and can obviously get you unalived.

Interstates and side streets aren't the same level of blocking a roadway.

Not saying anything about the legality or morality of either situation but no one was doing 70 coming up to the incident earlier this week. I don't think comparing one to the other makes much of a point, unless you are trying to find anything you can think of that might stick to prove your argument.


It comes down to this. Either you think at some point the government has justifiable means to execute dissidents or you don't. I don't know that we have all of the details behind the incident yet but worst case she was there to start trouble. From what Ive read in normal situations like this if law enforcement thinks a person is trying to run them over they get out of the way, take down their plates and take them into custody in a manner where the potential to harm themselves and bystanders is minimized. No one is talking about this but what if in the officers haste to discharge his firearm he lets one loose that takes out someone across the street watching this unfold. Is he guilty of a crime then?

So the truth is likely somewhere between she was in the wrong place at the wrong time and just trying to get out of the way or she was there to agitate and was trying to bump the officer and planned on flipping him the bird as she sped away. I don't think there is room in there for a capital offense. Obviously you disagree and think somewhere the officer was justified in using lethal force. I guess the next question is how far do you think their authority goes in using lethal force? The next time someone takes a swing at an officer, can they shoot them? If you connect with a punch just right you can knock someone to the ground and cause a brain hemorrhage. What if someone is saying something that could cause a riot? Their speech is inciting others so they needed to be silenced.

Obviously (hopefully) you see some of this would be an egregious use of lethal force by an officer. But when you have a relatively untrained federal agency that sees these as acts that could potentially require lethal force and they now know the federally government at the highest levels will support them no matter what, it creates a serious issue for the rest of us.

 

[Polds4OSU]

MAYOR FREY: “ICE left the car in the middle of the street. so you got this vehicle just rolling with nobody in it… It could've hit anybody. This is not about safety.”

See also: Dude falling on ice and firing gun, pulling guns on protestors, shooting moms in the head etc.

The Tennessee Holler (@thetnholler) on Threads

MAYOR FREY: “ICE left the car in the middle of the street. so you got this vehicle just rolling with nobody in it… It could've hit anybody. This is not about safety.” See also: Dude falling on ice and firing gun, pulling guns on protestors, shooting moms in the head etc.

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