Christian Nationalism

[UpGrayedd Double Dose]

Here, u can argue with the church and FYI the Bible also talks about Basilisks , Giants, Unicorns, Dragons, Behemoths , Leviathans, etc. Do you deny those too ??


Lutherans Interpret
1 Thessalonians 4:17 as describing events of the Last Day, not a secret pre-tribulation removal of believers. Instead of a rapture, Lutheran theology teaches that Jesus will return visibly, the dead in Christ will rise first, and then the living believers will be "caught up" to meet Him, all as part of His one visible return at the end of time.

Key differences in belief

• Timing: The rapture is often taught as a secret event before a period of tribulation, but Lutherans see the events in 1 Thessalonians as taking place at the visible, final return of Christ on the Last Day.
• Separation of believers: A core belief in the rapture is the removal of believers from the earth before judgment, leaving the unrighteous behind. Lutheran theology holds that on the Last Day, Christ will come to judge the quick and the dead, and believers will be gathered to Him, but it is not a secret removal.
• • The "caught up" event: In the rapture view, believers are taken off the earth to heaven. In the Lutheran view, the "caught up" event is the moment when living believers join the resurrected dead to meet the returning Lord in the air as part of His final, public return.
  • Purpose of 1 Thessalonians: Lutherans view the passage as a source of comfort for believers who were grieving over those who had died before Christ's return, not as a description of a secret removal from earth.

LOL, I see you edited your post.

"Here, u can argue with the church and FYI the Bible also talks about Basilisks , Giants, Unicorns, Dragons, Behemoths , Leviathans, etc. Do you deny those too ??"

Depending on your translation, no I don't deny they are mentioned in the Bible.

 

[RxCowboy]

I'm not going to debate the Rapture with non-Christians because I see that as a futile exercise. However, as a Luthern to state that "there is No such thing as the Rapture in the Bible" isn't accurate. Sure the word "Rapture" isn't written in the Bible, but the concept certainly is (see 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). The word "Trinity" isn't written in the Bible either, but do you deny that too?

You are free to debate it with me. I worked for an evangelical university for 13 years and while I no longer identify as an evangelical, I still attend an evangelical church (I have my reasons). The rapture is false doctrine. The first century church would not have understood John Nelson Darby’s interpretation.

 

[UpGrayedd Double Dose]

You are free to debate it with me. I worked for an evangelical university for 13 years and while I no longer identify as an evangelical, I still attend an evangelical church (I have my reasons). The rapture is false doctrine. The first century church would not have understood John Nelson Darby’s interpretation.

Last time I checked, I never appealed to the authority of John Nelson Darby, and his views are not the only interpretation of the Rapture. As I stated in another post, there are many differing views on the Rapture, and eschatology in general is a very complex subject. I have my own views, but anyone that tells you they know for sure is either misinformed or lying (such is the nature of future prophecy).

With that said, to state the rapture is false doctrine without defining a specific interpretation is a bold statement. How would you explain 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17? Additionally to claim that you know definitively what Paul's original audience thought or would believe is speculative at best.

 

[RxCowboy]

Last time I checked, I never appealed to the authority of John Nelson Darby, and his views are not the only interpretation of the Rapture. As I stated in another post, there are many differing views on the Rapture, and eschatology in general is a very complex subject. I have my own views, but anyone that tells you they know for sure is either misinformed or lying (such is the nature of future prophecy).

With that said, to state the rapture is false doctrine without defining a specific interpretation is a bold statement. How would you explain 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17? Additionally to claim that you know definitively what Paul's original audience thought or would believe is speculative at best.

Show me a historical interpretation prior to John Nelson Darby and the Schofield study Bible for the rapture.

There isn’t one. The rapture is a 19th century invention.

 

[UpGrayedd Double Dose]

Show me a historical interpretation prior to John Nelson Darby and the Schofield study Bible for the rapture.

There isn’t one. The rapture is a 19th century invention.

You must believe pre-tribulation premillennialism is the only interpretation...

Show me proof you know what Paul's original audience thought or would believe.

I'll ask again, if 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is not describing some form of "Rapture" event (regardless of how and when this event occurs) what is Paul writing about?

 

[RxCowboy]

You must believe pre-tribulation premillennialism is the only interpretation...

Show me proof you know what Paul's original audience thought or would believe.

I'll ask again, if 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is not describing some form of "Rapture" event (regardless of how and when this event occurs) what is Paul writing about?

Well, first of all, 1 Thessalonians was written about AD 49-51 and Revelation was written about AD 96, so the original audience in Thessalonika wouldn’t have connected 4:16-17 with any pre-tribulation pre millennialism whatsoever because they hadn’t heard of it. And I can say that with 100% confidence because they can’t connect those verses with other verses which haven’t been written yet.

Second of all, since those verses hadn’t been written yet it is highly unlikely that Paul would have had them in mind as he was writing or would have been referring to them.

Finally, the imagery of Jesus returning “in the clouds” is the imagery of a returning and triumphant and conquering hero, something that Paul, a Roman citizen, and the Greeks of Thessalonika would have been familiar with and immediately understood - a hero in a chariot. The crowd would turn outside of the city and escort the hero in his triumphal rerun to the city. In this case, in Jesus triumphal return from the heavens to the earth.

 

[cowboyinexile]

Meanwhile, the Catholics

 

[UpGrayedd Double Dose]

Well, first of all, 1 Thessalonians was written about AD 49-51 and Revelation was written about AD 96, so the original audience in Thessalonika wouldn’t have connected 4:16-17 with any pre-tribulation pre millennialism whatsoever because they hadn’t heard of it. And I can say that with 100% confidence because they can’t connect those verses with other verses which haven’t been written yet.

Second of all, since those verses hadn’t been written yet it is highly unlikely that Paul would have had them in mind as he was writing or would have been referring to them.

Finally, the imagery of Jesus returning “in the clouds” is the imagery of a returning and triumphant and conquering hero, something that Paul, a Roman citizen, and the Greeks of Thessalonika would have been familiar with and immediately understood - a hero in a chariot. The crowd would turn outside of the city and escort the hero in his triumphal rerun to the city. In this case, in Jesus triumphal return from the heavens to the earth.

Once again your first error is that you incorrectly believe that pre-tribulation premillennialism is the only interpretation.

 

[steross]

I'm gonna have to hang with Marcus on this one......

 

[RxCowboy]

Once again your first error is that you incorrectly believe that pre-tribulation premillennialism is the only interpretation.

You just conveniently ignored everything I wrote. The question was how would the original audience have interpreted 1 Thess. I showed you. You punted.

 

[GratefulPoke]

I'm not sure where you got that, but eschatology is a very complex subject. To say that the Rapture is "often" taught as a secret event before tribulation is also disingenuous unless you define "often" as maybe sometimes.

There are pre-tribulation premillennialists, mid-tribulation premillennialists, post-tribulation premillennialists, amillennialists, postmillennialsts, and probably some views I don't even know about that all believe different things about the Rapture. To say that there are complex and different views on the Rapture is one thing, but to say "there is No such thing as the Rapture in the Bible" is inaccurate.

There is no such thing as the rapture in the bible as it didn't even exist as a concept until around 1830. This includes in 325 AD when the council of niceaea was convened. It was not part of any teachings in any christian sect until after 1830.

 

[CowboyJD]

I'm gonna have to hang with Marcus on this one......

View attachment 15787

 

[UpGrayedd Double Dose]

You just conveniently ignored everything I wrote.

Ditto, but i have a dinner date so I gotta run.

 

[RxCowboy]

There is no such thing as the rapture in the bible as it didn't even exist as a concept until around 1830. This includes in 325 when the council of niceaea was convened. It was not part of any teachings in any christian sect until after 1830.

It certainly couldn’t have been interpreted as pre-trib rapture by the original audience when “trib” wouldn’t have been written for another 40 years or so.

 

[RxCowboy]

Ditto, but i have a dinner date so I gotta run.

No, I specifically addressed the question. I do not believe in any rapture at all. The original audience would not have interpreted it that way. The rapture is a 19th century invention.

 

[UpGrayedd Double Dose]

There is no such thing as the rapture in the bible as it didn't even exist as a concept until around 1830. This includes in 325 AD when the council of niceaea was convened. It was not part of any teachings in any christian sect until after 1830.

You too must incorrectly believe pre-tribulation premillennialism is the only interpretation of the Rapture.

 

[GratefulPoke]

You too must incorrectly believe pre-tribulation premillennialism is the only interpretation of the Rapture.

No. Again, most Christians in history did not believe in any sort of rapture. As in, there is no such thing, concept or inkling analogous to the rapture. Its not that they thought there was a different interpretation, it did not exist in their minds at all.

 

[RxCowboy]

No. Again, most Christians in history did not believe in any sort of rapture. As in, there is no such thing, concept or inkling analogous to the rapture. Its not that they thought there was a different interpretation, it did not exist in their minds at all.

He keeps trying to put words in our mouths, ignoring what we are actually saying.

 

[CowboyJD]

Ditto, but i have a dinner date so I gotta run.

 

[CowboyJD]

You too must incorrectly believe pre-tribulation premillennialism is the only interpretation of the Rapture.

And then….

Then….

Don’t mind me.