US continues to go forward

[milehighpoke]

The recipe for home ownership isn't that hard. You get employment, buy a cheap car, make your payments, live cheap and save. Within 5 years you will have some credit, some cash, and the world is your oyster. The consistent employment, cheap car, and cheap living are the obstacles that people face. A lot of folks just can't bring themselves to downgrade their lifestyle once they get off the tit. I can promise you that's the issue for the vast majority of the kids bitching in that video.

Honestly, I'm almost at the point where I think college is a waste. I know some employers / trades require it. Fact is, if you are smart and have a good work ethic the lack of an education might slow your Carrer progression a couple of years, but it's not going to hold you back in the end.

The first 3 sentences here are some of the silliest things I've read in my 20+ years on this board. What an insanely oversimplified and privileged thing to say / think.

" The consistent employment, cheap car, and cheap living are the obstacles that people face". I agree 100% here, but probably not for the same reasons as you

 

[PF5]

Billie Eilish Calls Out Billionaires While Giving Speech in a Room with Mark Zuckerberg — How Did He React?

Billie Eilish called out billionaires in her speech at the 'WSJ. Magazine' Innovator Awards on Wednesday, Oct. 29. Billionaire Mark Zuckerberg was in the audience at the event.

people.com

 

[steross]

Billie Eilish Calls Out Billionaires While Giving Speech in a Room with Mark Zuckerberg — How Did He React?

Billie Eilish called out billionaires in her speech at the 'WSJ. Magazine' Innovator Awards on Wednesday, Oct. 29. Billionaire Mark Zuckerberg was in the audience at the event.

people.com

She is 23 years old and worth $50 million. IMHO, she needs to give away $49 million before she says a dang thing about anyone else.

Similar to this quote (if true). You get paid $9 million a year to coach college students. Pretty tough high horse to be on talking about money and greed in your sport making that salary.

 

[PF5]

She is 23 years old and worth $50 million. IMHO, she needs to give away $49 million before she says a dang thing about anyone else.

So donating $11.5 million is not enough?! WTF?! So calling out or encouraging or asking billionaires is out of line? Totally disagree…

 

[steross]

So donating $11.5 million is not enough?! WTF?! So calling out or encouraging or asking billionaires is out of line? Totally disagree…

I guess we will disagree. And I would suspect that the majority of billionaires she is calling out have donated that percentage of their wealth, also.

It is all about perspective, and she is showing her youth. As a 23-year-old multimillionaire, her life of luxury is set. And she looks at billionaires and thinks, "Why do they need more than me. I can buy a jet, why should they buy a bigger jet." Well, the people that live on $15K a year look at her and think, why does she need so much. If she gave all of it away but $1 million she would still be in the top 99.9% of 23-year-olds. Why would she need to have more than 99.9% of her peers?

I met a security guard in Jamaica. Super-nice guy. We chatted for a while, and he told me his hourly salary which was crazy like $1.12 an hour. He asked me what I did and I told him and he was like "Wow, your salary is probably 10 times what mine is!" In reality, my salary was hundreds of times what his is. Should I give mine away based on his perspective?

What she is basically saying is being super-rich is ok, but, don't be super-richer than the level of super-rich I have.

 

[PF5]

I guess we will disagree. And I would suspect that the majority of billionaires she is calling out have donated that percentage of their wealth, also.

It is all about perspective, and she is showing her youth. As a 23-year-old multimillionaire, her life of luxury is set. And she looks at billionaires and thinks, "Why do they need more than me. I can buy a jet, why should they buy a bigger jet." Well, the people that live on $15K a year look at her and think, why does she need so much. If she gave all of it away but $1 million she would still be in the top 99.9% of 23-year-olds. Why would she need to have more than 99.9% of her peers?

I met a security guard in Jamaica. Super-nice guy. We chatted for a while, and he told me his hourly salary which was crazy like $1.12 an hour. He asked me what I did and I told him and he was like "Wow, your salary is probably 10 times what mine is!" In reality, my salary was hundreds of times what his is. Should I give mine away based on his perspective?

What she is basically saying is being super-rich is ok, but, don't be super-richer than the level of super-rich I have.

I guess we got different points of view from that article… I did not read into it that she is saying don’t be richer than her…simply saying “we” have the funds to do good, so do good by donating.
Again, agree to disagree… I think it is a wonderful act on her part!

 

[GratefulPoke]

I guess we will disagree. And I would suspect that the majority of billionaires she is calling out have donated that percentage of their wealth, also.

It is all about perspective, and she is showing her youth. As a 23-year-old multimillionaire, her life of luxury is set. And she looks at billionaires and thinks, "Why do they need more than me. I can buy a jet, why should they buy a bigger jet." Well, the people that live on $15K a year look at her and think, why does she need so much. If she gave all of it away but $1 million she would still be in the top 99.9% of 23-year-olds. Why would she need to have more than 99.9% of her peers?

I met a security guard in Jamaica. Super-nice guy. We chatted for a while, and he told me his hourly salary which was crazy like $1.12 an hour. He asked me what I did and I told him and he was like "Wow, your salary is probably 10 times what mine is!" In reality, my salary was hundreds of times what his is. Should I give mine away based on his perspective?

What she is basically saying is being super-rich is ok, but, don't be super-richer than the level of super-rich I have.

She is 23 years old and worth $50 million. IMHO, she needs to give away $49 million before she says a dang thing about anyone else.

Similar to this quote (if true). You get paid $9 million a year to coach college students. Pretty tough high horse to be on talking about money and greed in your sport making that salary.

View attachment 15388

I think you are incredibly wrong here IMO.

Someone worth $50 million is not a systemic threat to a free society due to a wealth and power discrepancy like someone worth $250 billion like Zuckerberg is. He can buy political offices, he can massage and bribe the government (indirectly, but also as we see now directly) to further his interests. He can act in a way that only an entity with a near monopoly can. A society where a single person (Musk in this case) has the same net worth as the bottom 53% of the population is not sustainable, especially in a supposed democratic republic. If this wealth discrepancy, which really is a power discrepancy continues, we will not survive it.

And your anecdote is just more evidence of this point. So you make a couple hundred times a security guard in Jamaica. You don't live in his society and even if you did, the wealth discrepancy between you and him is far, far smaller than yours is with any billionaire. Zuck is worth 5000 times what Billie Eilish is worth! Think about that for a second.

I really want to drive this point home: Do you really think someone whose net worth is 5000 times less than another person has a leg to stand on when it comes to this? Someone worth $50 million all other things considered is not a systemic threat to our society as it is currently configured, while someone worth $250 billion is. And before you point to Zuck's philanthropy, he formed a LLC for it, not a charity org, complete with its own lobbying arm. WTF is that? Musk and Thiel are on record saying that they don't believe in philanthropy and their actions match this--they have not donated to any charities or started any.

One thing is certain, that kind of wealth and power makes people sociopaths if they are not one already. For every Mark Cuban, there are 4 Musks, Thiels, Ellisons and Zuckerbergs.

 

[Stillwaterman]

The first 3 sentences here are some of the silliest things I've read in my 20+ years on this board. What an insanely oversimplified and privileged thing to say / think.

" The consistent employment, cheap car, and cheap living are the obstacles that people face". I agree 100% here, but probably not for the same reasons as you

LOL, sorry I don't complicate things with lots of words and "yeah butts." What I said is pretty much what every financial adviser would tell a 20-year-old who is starting out with next to nothing. It worked for me. I also live an actual affordable part of the country. I have an equally successful cousin who lives in Vail. He will probably never own a home until he moves. But he loves skying so there's that. Theres always choices to be made, and its just not that hard if you make the right ones.

 

[GratefulPoke]

LOL, sorry I don't complicate things with lots of words and "yeah butts." What I said is pretty much what every financial adviser would tell a 20-year-old who is starting out with next to nothing. It worked for me. I also live an actual affordable part of the country. I have an equally successful cousin who lives in Vail. He will probably never own a home until he moves. But he loves skying so there's that. Theres always choices to be made, and its just not that hard if you make the right ones.

The average age of a homebuyer is 56 years old, and the median age of a first-time homebuyer is now 38 years old. Now consider that hedge funds bought 26% percent of all homes last year and now investment entities own just shy of 10% of homes in the US and rising.

The housing market is very different than when you and I first got into it and it isn't close. The rentier economy is here, where people own less and less and instead everything is a rent, subscription or ongoing surcharge for access.

 

[PF5]

Portland coffee shop raises more than $184K for free breakfast for SNAP recipients

Heretic Coffee Co. in Portland, Oregon, has raised over $184,000 in donations to fund free breakfasts for SNAP recipients in need, if food benefits cease on Nov. 1.

abcnews.go.com

 

[steross]

I think you are incredibly wrong here IMO.

Someone worth $50 million is not a systemic threat to a free society due to a wealth and power discrepancy like someone worth $250 billion like Zuckerberg is. He can buy political offices, he can massage and bribe the government (indirectly, but also as we see now directly) to further his interests. He can act in a way that only an entity with a near monopoly can. A society where a single person (Musk in this case) has the same net worth as the bottom 53% of the population is not sustainable, especially in a supposed democratic republic. If this wealth discrepancy, which really is a power discrepancy continues, we will not survive it.

And your anecdote is just more evidence of this point. So you make a couple hundred times a security guard in Jamaica. You don't live in his society and even if you did, the wealth discrepancy between you and him is far, far smaller than yours is with any billionaire. Zuck is worth 5000 times what Billie Eilish is worth! Think about that for a second.

I really want to drive this point home: Do you really think someone whose net worth is 5000 times less than another person has a leg to stand on when it comes to this? Someone worth $50 million all other things considered is not a systemic threat to our society as it is currently configured, while someone worth $250 billion is. And before you point to Zuck's philanthropy, he formed a LLC for it, not a charity org, complete with its own lobbying arm. WTF is that? Musk and Thiel are on record saying that they don't believe in philanthropy and their actions match this--they have not donated to any charities or started any.

One thing is certain, that kind of wealth and power makes people sociopaths if they are not one already. For every Mark Cuban, there are 4 Musks, Thiels, Ellisons and Zuckerbergs.

If they are a systemic threat, telling them to donate more money is not even close to a solution or really a part of this conversation at all.

There are 1,335 billionaires in the US. Only a few of them have the ability to cause the issues you describe. A discussion of maximum wealth of individuals before those individual cause too much systemic risk is a great conversation. But, that is much different than multi-millionaire youngsters picking the somewhat arbitrary wealth level of "billionaire" to donate their money when it is likely that very few of them had her level of wealth at her age.

There are A LOT of great musicians out there who make very little. I think any of them asking her why she needs to be a multimillionaire at 23 instead of sharing that wealth to have many comfortable musicians is the same as her asking someone why they are a billionaire. She is worth $50 million at 23 and the average age of a billionaire is 70. Combine her human capital times her monetary capital and she is far more wealthy than many billionaires.

 

[PF5]

If they are a systemic threat, telling them to donate more money is not even close to a solution or really a part of this conversation at all.

There are 1,335 billionaires in the US. Only a few of them have the ability to cause the issues you describe. A discussion of maximum wealth of individuals before those individual cause too much systemic risk is a great conversation. But, that is much different than multi-millionaire youngsters picking the somewhat arbitrary wealth level of "billiinaire" to donate their money when it is likely that very few of them had her level of wealth at her age.

There are A LOT of great musicians out there who make very little. I think any of them asking her why she needs to be a multimillionaire at 23 instead of sharing that wealth to have many comfortable musicians is the same as her asking someone why they are a billionaire. She is worth $50 million at 23 and the average age of a billionaire is 70. Combine her human capital times her monetary capital and she is far more wealthy than many billionaires.

I guess I don´t understand why you seem so upset at Billie being worth $50 million at 23...she freakin´ donated $11.5 million...are you upset that she called out billionaires or just that she is filthy rich?...at least she is ´giving back´ and trying to do good...

 

[Stillwaterman]

The average age of a homebuyer is 56 years old, and the median age of a first-time homebuyer is now 38 years old. Now consider that hedge funds bought 26% percent of all homes last year and now investment entities own just shy of 10% of homes in the US and rising.

The housing market is very different than when you and I first got into it and it isn't close. The rentier economy is here, where people own less and less and instead everything is a rent, subscription or ongoing surcharge for access.

Yeah, I can see this. Im pretty sure the neighborhood I first bought into is all rentals now. I sold mine to a renter for a chunk more than I was asking (I didn't know until we closed not that It would have made any difference). My Oklahoma viewpoint may also be skewed. Sub 150K homes are still a thing here. A coworker of mine purchased a home last year for the same price I bought mine for 12 years ago.. Hers is a 900sf 80 year home on 1/10th of an acre in a questionable neighborhood. Mine is 20 years old 1800sf on a rather incredible 3 acres in a fairly legit neighborhood.

I can acknowledge that its harder. But still doable.

 

[steross]

I guess I don´t understand why you seem so upset at Billie being worth $50 million at 23...she freakin´ donated $11.5 million...are you upset that she called out billionaires or just that she is filthy rich?...at least she is ´giving back´ and trying to do good...

Who is upset? I just disagree with what she said. Not disagreeing at all with donating. If she had said "In these hard times, all of us fortunate enough to donate should give as much as we can..." would have been absolutely fine with me. Probably a like and move on.

But, that isn't what she said at all. She said "If you’re a billionaire, why are you a billionaire? No hate, but yeah, give your money away, shorties.”

I absolutely think the exact sentiment applies to her. "If you’re a multi-millionaire, why are you a multi-millionaire? No hate, but yeah, give your money away, kiddo.”

She is claiming that these people should give their money away to the point that they are no longer billionaires. Fine, I also think that at 23 and the ability to make a ton more in her lifetime that she should give away until she is no longer a multi-millionaire. I really don't see the difference. She has massive wealth and massive potential. They have massive wealth and often little potential left due to age. What's good for the goose......

 

[Stillwaterman]

It might just me oversimplifying things again, but do these mega billionaires just have piles of liquid assets they can just snap their fingers and change the world with? Or are they just retaining very large controlling shares of the companies they have created and keep the economy pumping?

 

[PF5]

She is claiming that these people should give their money away to the point that they are no longer billionaires.

this is what you interpreted...I interpreted it as donate ´some´ of your wealth or even ´more´ of your wealth to good causes...not to give it all away, or ´most´ of it...
anyway, the only reason I shared article was to applaud her for donating $$...good for her!

 

[milehighpoke]

LOL, sorry I don't complicate things with lots of words and "yeah butts." What I said is pretty much what every financial adviser would tell a 20-year-old who is starting out with next to nothing. It worked for me. I also live an actual affordable part of the country. I have an equally successful cousin who lives in Vail. He will probably never own a home until he moves. But he loves skying so there's that. Theres always choices to be made, and its just not that hard if you make the right ones.

The average (yes, average) home cost in Denver right now is $550k. Without a college degree, the average starting salary is just above $33k. With a degree, about $60k. Without factoring in the insanely high cost of food, transportation, etc., that math ain't mathing.

I'm glad it worked for you and your cousin. It worked for me as well. I bought my house 13 years ago for $425k, which was CHEAP then. 13 years later, and I wouldn't be able to afford my same exact house, even with quite a bit more money coming in. And I promise you, I live within my means.

Saying it's "easy" because you were able to do it, and you cousin can live in Vail, is absolutely wild to me.

But, the whole point of believing the American dream (lol) is doable for everybody, is so it's easier to look down on those who can't. Or won't. People who are struggling to survive must just be lazy and unmotivated, because it's so easy to succeed. Therefore, they shouldn't get any handouts, because it's all their fault. Simple.

We just happen to have 42million+ people in this country who are too lazy to get rich. So eff em.

 

[GratefulPoke]

If they are a systemic threat, telling them to donate more money is not even close to a solution or really a part of this conversation at all.

There are 1,335 billionaires in the US. Only a few of them have the ability to cause the issues you describe. A discussion of maximum wealth of individuals before those individual cause too much systemic risk is a great conversation. But, that is much different than multi-millionaire youngsters picking the somewhat arbitrary wealth level of "billionaire" to donate their money when it is likely that very few of them had her level of wealth at her age.

There are A LOT of great musicians out there who make very little. I think any of them asking her why she needs to be a multimillionaire at 23 instead of sharing that wealth to have many comfortable musicians is the same as her asking someone why they are a billionaire. She is worth $50 million at 23 and the average age of a billionaire is 70. Combine her human capital times her monetary capital and she is far more wealthy than many billionaires.

You and I agree, it is not a long term solution but is much preferable to the current approach which is to give little/nothing at all. Even the oil barons and moguls of the gilded age had a much better approach to this topic than our current crop of oligarchs. Billie Eilish also is 23 and how she addresses this issue likes before her she has decades to practice what she is preaching. The 70 billionaire does not have much more road left and if they weren't generous or socially conscious up to this point, it is highly unlikely they will be moving forward. A 23 year old is still quite malleable.

I don't get this tact to defend a group of 1335 people who combined have more wealth than 70% of americans and climbing. Lets for the sake of argument say that you are right, young rich people who are well off themselves should not call out oligarchs. What exactly does it achieve? What should we do/not do based on it?

 

[GratefulPoke]

Yeah, I can see this. Im pretty sure the neighborhood I first bought into is all rentals now. I sold mine to a renter for a chunk more than I was asking (I didn't know until we closed not that It would have made any difference). My Oklahoma viewpoint may also be skewed. Sub 150K homes are still a thing here. A coworker of mine purchased a home last year for the same price I bought mine for 12 years ago.. Hers is a 900sf 80 year home on 1/10th of an acre in a questionable neighborhood. Mine is 20 years old 1800sf on a rather incredible 3 acres in a fairly legit neighborhood.

I can acknowledge that its harder. But still doable.

8 years ago, we bought a starter home in our area for about double what you listed in an ok neighborhood. Keep in mind, most other neighborhoods were well above that price and we could not afford at that time. Since then, it doubled in value, plus interest rates have gone up. If we refinanced our home now, we would pay about $1000 more a month on the same principal. Which is still much lower than the value of the home today. It is even more of an unaffordable market today and gen z/younger millennials are rent trapped, even if they are working professionals with a college degree. Add in AI price fixing which is rampant and it is even worse.

Homes are one of the main ways Americans build wealth and it is one of the few assets that Americans understand. Pushing an entire generation back by 6-10 years when purchasing their first home makes a huge difference with compounding interest over their lifetime. And that is for people who ultimately can afford to own a home! Now we have predatory payday lending apps that people are using to just pay for groceries. 1 in 8 Americans are on SNAP and 70% of those people work full time! If we don't address this, we are going to have an economic collapse.

 

[steross]

I don't get this tact to defend a group of 1335 people who combined have more wealth than 70% of americans and climbing. Lets for the sake of argument say that you are right, young rich people who are well off themselves should not call out oligarchs. What exactly does it achieve? What should we do/not do based on it?

I don't feel I am defending them at all. Everything I said was about her, not them. All I'm saying is if her level of wealth can call them out as excessive, why can't I call out her level of wealth as excessive, too?

Why are you ok with a multimillionaire calling out billionaires saying "Why are you a billionaire" but are not OK with a barely millionaire at retirement age calling out a multimillionaire 20-year-old saying "Why are you a multimillionaire?"

What is the cutoff? Is it $999 million? Does age matter at all?