US continues to go backward...

Has the left really moved that far left? On some social issues (like transgender rights) I can see it but alot of it has turned into purity tests instead of acceptance.

For example I believe in body autonomy but I also think we should be promoting gender identity treatment with minors. I think that's pretty reasonable and I would assume that 20 years ago people who would have been more supportive of that with parental consent would have said we disagree but we can have a conversation about it. Now it seems like if you don't want 3 year olds to act like a different sex and receive treatment for it you are a bigot in the eyes of some. Telling someone you are a terrible person for not believing in something to the extent I believe in it doesn't seem like a progressive ideology.

I hear alot that our left is more center in Europe and they have really leftist policies. I don't have the world experience to give a valid opinion on it but wonder how true that is or if I am just reading bs about it on reddit and that is influencing what Im saying here. And to be fair Im more asking the question than trying to make a point. Because it seems like stuff like border reform on the left really hasn't moved that far left, you just have fear mongering on the right that everyone who isn't fully supportive of Trump is for open borders. I think it's ok to say what Trump is doing now is reprehensible but what Biden did the first part of his term was a massive and unnecessary overcorrection to Trump's original policies.


I think the division is increasing dramatically. The way I drew it and my opinion is that the division is increasing because of the push from the MAGA right and the left is not much different from it was. But, there is some fluidity to politics, so whether that divide is because "the left moved farther left" just seems like yet another divisive thing to argue about that will never have an answer.

I also think that division in opinions is healthy and necessary. Everyone conforming is authoritarian. Division in respect and treatment of people is not healthy. That is what I was portraying.
 
Your comparison misses the issue of scale. When you combine decades of scandals and compare them to a single year, it can make things look equivalent when it is nowhere near the same. To me, it’s less about whether actions were public or hidden, and more about how often they occur. Historically, major controversies happened occasionally, now they are constant.

Neither party has a spotless record. There have been anti-democratic or troubling actions across the political spectrum, look at the LWV removal from the debates, look at what the Dems did to yank Bernie in 2016. None of that is democracy. Democrats in the past have been racist, look at LBJ or even early Joe Biden. It’s easy to notice faults more readily in the side we oppose.

My view is that the current situation represents a meaningful escalation rather than just “more of the same.” Framing it as equivalent risks minimizing extreme differences that matter. I have never been worried that any of those prior presidents could end our democratic republic. That is a current concern. You will not be able to frame this in a way that makes them seem the same to me.

As a thought experiment: if you could choose the current president from Reagan, George H. W. Bush, Nixon, or Trump, would you just say "Meh, all the same. No need to raise the dead, we might as well stick with Trump." I would not. I don't believe those men, despite their flaws, were authoritarian bigots like Trump. And that’s why I don’t view the present moment as typical conservative politics.


I think you are partially against what I am saying because you feel it's an attack on you and I am not trying to do that. I'm not talking about individual conservatives. I am talking about the Conservative Party. They have had a reoccurring theme throughout americas history. Hell you seem to think this is worse that the civil war. Which again was caused by the Conservative Party. I'm pretty sure the deadliest war in our history is pretty dang big scale wise. I don't thinknany were good presidents. Reagan's policies are a big reason we are where we are to day. If I had to chose I would chose Bush because he was the least bad. Order from worst to not worst.
1. Trump
2. Nixon
3. Reagan
4. Bush
 
I think you are partially against what I am saying because you feel it's an attack on you and I am not trying to do that. I'm not talking about individual conservatives. I am talking about the Conservative Party. They have had a reoccurring theme throughout americas history. Hell you seem to think this is worse that the civil war. Which again was caused by the Conservative Party. I'm pretty sure the deadliest war in our history is pretty dang big scale wise. I don't thinknany were good presidents. Reagan's policies are a big reason we are where we are to day. If I had to chose I would chose Bush because he was the least bad. Order from worst to not worst.
1. Trump
2. Nixon
3. Reagan
4. Bush
This has nothing at all to do with me, and I do not take it that way. I don't think the theme you are attempting to portray is accurate. As I said in another post, difference of opinion is healthy but treating people poorly is not. I believe someone like Reagan or Bush can have opinions that maybe ended up with unintended consequences that were not good, but that does not mean they had the same intentions as someone like Trump and I don't think treating them as if they are Trump is right. There were also some huge problems that came out of the "war on poverty" but I don't think that the liberal architects of that were trying to cement generational dependence and poverty even though people on the opposite side of you make those claims. I don't think abortion is "black genocide" even though the abortion numbers do show more black abortions per capita. There can be bad consequences of reasonable attempts at policy and I don't think putting a retrospectoscope on those things and giving mal intent is good for the nation.

I am glad that a conservative "started" the civil war and ended slavery. I'm a little surprised you see that as a bad thing.
 
This has nothing at all to do with me, and I do not take it that way. I don't think the theme you are attempting to portray is accurate. As I said in another post, difference of opinion is healthy but treating people poorly is not. I believe someone like Reagan or Bush can have opinions that maybe ended up with unintended consequences that were not good, but that does not mean they had the same intentions as someone like Trump and I don't think treating them as if they are Trump is right. There were also some huge problems that came out of the "war on poverty" but I don't think that the liberal architects of that were trying to cement generational dependence and poverty even though people on the opposite side of you make those claims. I don't think abortion is "black genocide" even though the abortion numbers do show more black abortions per capita. There can be bad consequences of reasonable attempts at policy and I don't think putting a retrospectoscope on those things and giving mal intent is good for the nation.

I am glad that a conservative "started" the civil war and ended slavery. I'm a little surprised you see that as a bad thing.
The confererate are the conservative. I have intentionally not used republican or democrat because their ideologies have changed over the years. And if I have been rude to you I apologize I did not mean to be. I feel like we have been having a discussion. I also see the issue. You are still talking about individuals and I am talking about the party as a whole. And as for Reagan as Governor of California made open carry illegal because the black panthers exercised their right so I do believe he was deep down a racist. So I do believe he would be maga today.
 
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I tried to find it but can’t. Basically an independent think tank performed the analysis being discussed. It removed party identity and personalities and solely focused on policy. Labels were left/center/right.

It had its own score/metrics analysis and looked at I believe was 1980 forward.

What it found was left has moved left but using its analysis the right had moved right 3-3.5 times farther. Again based on policy alone.

I’ve said it before and believe it more now than ever. We’ve abandoned the linear approach to politics. The far left and the far right are things of the past. We are in an era of horseshoe shaped convergence w the bottom of the horseshoe being the center. The further up the horseshoe you move and away from the center the closer you get to those you thought you were furthest from.

Take 2A.

Center is basically individual gun ownership w common sense regulations like background checks and maybe even some red flag laws.

Moving left you start talking about licensing, age requirements and certain types of weapons/ammo elimination.

Moving right you start talking about open carry, no restrictions based on location (schools, sporting events, concerts, government facilities/buildings).

Moving further away from the center and “up the horseshoe”as it bends back toward each other you have both sides openly talking about restricting who can own, what types and where. Complete restriction of the 2A. Albeit for different reasons.

Same can be said about many other issues like religion, freedoms of speech/press, health care (vaccines).
 
The confererate are the conservative. I have intentionally not used republican or democrat because their ideologies have changed over the years. And if I have been rude to you I apologize I did not mean to be. I feel like we have been having a discussion. I also see the issue. You are still talking about individuals and I am talking about the party as a whole. And as for Reagan as Governor of California made open carry illegal because the black panthers exercised their right so I do believe he was deep down a racist. So I do believe he would be maga today.
Lincoln was a conservative. Reagan may have done that, but Biden openly worked with segregationists to kill school integration. Is he also a racist for that or is his racism OK since he isn't conservative?

You haven't been rude, we just disagree. I don't think calling a party as a whole something is worthwhile or true. Please don't take this as rude, but it is Trump-like. Labelling a whole group of people based on selected things just doesn't sit well with me.
 
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