I don't think so at all! I just disagreed with your definition of socialism in your previous post. I agree with your definition of capitalism and communism.
Disagreement =/= intelligence. Its just different understandings.
Political and Economic Theory Thread
- Thread starter TheMonkey
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Disagreement =/= intelligence. Its just different understandings.
Bowers and I finally agree on a point and you go and shoot it down!
First off I’m not disagreeing w anything you’ve said as I find it very interesting and I also tend to view myself in the same light as Bowers posted.I’ve heard it said there are two ways to make money.
1. Bundling
2. Unbundling
The internet was the unbundling of the Information Age. AI may seem like an extension of that, but in reality it is rebundling the means of production. Compute, IP, and data storage are being fenced off in ways that the general population cannot participate in. The systems being created will attract users, which will extract more data and synthesis to increase their assets and create lock-in and incumbency that will discourage new entrants and competition. Continuing a trend toward monopolies.
AI and robotics will also rebundle manufacturing and distribution in ways that will add to the bifurcation of our economy. What happens to trickle-down economics then? Does it trickle down to the robots?
This is all creating a flywheel that gives more and more wealth and power to the billionaires as a reward for investing early. I think we’ll see a shedding of blue collar and white collar jobs. The middle class will continue to be hollowed out. We will likely need to institute a UBI to create a safety net for lower income homes.
Eventually, this too will be unbundled, but it may take a while. I think we will eventually move to a Relationship Economy where we actually begin to use technology to bring us together and enhance the human element. But that is just a hare-brained thought I’ve had. Not grounded in research or any objective data.
UBI is an interesting concept. I’d like to read thoughts on (1) who pays the UBI (feds? Corps?) (2) if it’s the feds how do they get the $s to pay out UBI? Since corps will have saved $ hand over fist by not paying salaries, 401ks, health insurance, FICA, OSHA costs and on and on? (3) How do you qualify for UBI and what’s the metric for how much you receive? (4) What happens to health insurance and other benefits like 401ks/retirement plans if businesses don’t employ? This would seem to put a huge strain on individual healthcare/insurance costs and the retirement system. (5) What happens to Social Security Income/Medicare if employees and employers are no longer paying into the system bc they have been moved to UBI?
Seems like there’s a huge tax coming on corporations and ultra wealthy. You can’t just disappear millions from the labor market and not have a complete system collapse.
There are likely others who are more familiar with the funding mechanisms for UBI. Your questions prompted me to do some searching on this. It appears there are different models. Below is what I found.
I also noted UBI is best described as a floor to stand on, not a safety net as I inaccurately characterized it. Usually no more than $1000/mo. so people are still motivated to work.
———
Andrew Yang’s Freedom Dividend (2019 U.S. plan)
10% VAT on goods/services (~$800B/yr) + financial transaction tax (0.1%, $50B) + carbon tax ($20/ton) + lift SS payroll cap + capital gains as ordinary income. Net cost: ~$1.4T (after benefit savings).
Progressive Tax‑Funded UBI
(e.g., wealth/carbon taxes)
Wealth tax (1–3% on ultra‑rich), progressive income/estate taxes, end corporate subsidies, carbon/resource rents (e.g., Alaska oil fund). Replaces some welfare to offset costs.
Negative Income Tax
(NIT, Friedman/Yang hybrid)
Progressive income tax + VAT; phases out as earnings rise (e.g., 50% subsidy up to $20K, then tapers).
Key Design Choices Across Proposals
- **Universal vs. means‑tested**: Flat to everyone (simpler admin, stigma‑free) or tapered (cheaper, targets need).
- **Replacement vs. supplement**: Many replace means‑tested welfare (savings ~20–30% of cost) but keep contributory programs like SS.
- **Corp tax angle**: Yes—profits/automation taxes (e.g., robot tax) or VAT on AI services to claw back labor savings. Addresses his #2/#5 directly.
- **Healthcare/retirement**: Hybrid public expansion + private persistence; UBI as floor, not full substitute (avoids his #4 strain).
These aren't collapse‑proof, but pilots (e.g., Stockton CA: $500/mo reduced joblessness without work drop) suggest feasibility with tweaks. His "huge tax on corps/wealthy" prediction holds—most plans rely on it.
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This is one of the best conversations I have listened to all year. Its a longer conversation, but a good one nonetheless.
Its between a couple of brits: Aaron Bastani and Rana Dasgupta. The latter just released a book called After Nations: The Making and Unmaking of a World Order. They talk about what is a Nation-State, how they came to be, parallels between Islam and the European far right, theology's interplay with the rise of nations and theological critiques of modern liberalism, British and American Hegemony, the use of the nation-state and international order as a vehicle for empire building and the rise of China. They also talk about the failures of the liberal order and what could come after the nation-state.
I have a lot of windshield time today driving from DFW to Tulsa. I plan to give this a listen. Thanks!
The Sayyid Qutb tie in was in particular really interesting. I had to read Milestones for one of my Middle Eastern History classes at OSU and it was really insightful, as it along with Ibn Taymiyyah are the ideological underpinnings for Islamic extremism & Al Qaeda.
Edit: I should also add the Muslim Brotherhood.
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