Political and Economic Theory Thread

[TheMonkey]

It is. And I realize @Rob B. thinks he is bringing balance to this den of Leftist propaganda. Ironically, though, he’s just reinforcing the stereotype that MAGA is a cult.

Meanwhile, I would truly appreciate some more conservative opinions being shared in here. But I would hope they would be done in good faith, unlike a few posters in here.

Also, there probably are a lot of things posted in here that come from left-leaning social media feeds, which are biased and/or not factual. I scroll past a lot of stuff posted by @Polds4OSU. Partly because of quantity and partly because of quality. I typically only read their posts that other members reply to. I don’t have time to read and verify all of those posts. Nor do I want to spend all my time on one side of the issues.

 

[cowboyinexile]

It is. And I realize @Rob B. thinks he is bringing balance to this den of Leftist propaganda. Ironically, though, he’s just reinforcing the stereotype that MAGA is a cult.

Meanwhile, I would truly appreciate some more conservative opinions being shared in here. But I would hope they would be done in good faith, unlike a few posters in here.

Also, there probably are a lot of things posted in here that come from left-leaning social media feeds, which are biased and/or not factual. I scroll past a lot is stuff posted by @Polds4OSU. Partly because of quantity and partly because of quality.

I don't know that there are many true ideological conservatives left. Most of them probably don't want to talk politics because there isn't much party identity they can find right now and they don't want to be associated/have to defend positions that their traditional party now pushes.

And the same is true with the ideological center left, but we have an administration that is so easy to find common ground with the more progressive elements of society that it makes discussion more palatable. I made a MTG joke a bit ago but I think she's right on the point she was trying to make. Adults can make decisions about their bodies but I don't think kids should be allowed to make permanent alterations to their gender even with parental consent. This shouldn't be seen as anti trans, just knowledge that kids don't think the consequences of their actions through (ask anyone in their 40's what they think of that tattoo they got on their 18th birthday). That's a huge step for someone to take and it should be done when they are older and fully understand the implications of what they are doing. I can sit here all day and talk about Trump but if the conversation here was about stuff like that and I had to bang my head against the wall being compare to people who think complete body autonomy should be extended to pre pubescent children then I would just not participate.

 

[GratefulPoke]

I don't know that there are many true ideological conservatives left. Most of them probably don't want to talk politics because there isn't much party identity they can find right now and they don't want to be associated/have to defend positions that their traditional party now pushes.

And the same is true with the ideological center left, but we have an administration that is so easy to find common ground with the more progressive elements of society that it makes discussion more palatable. I made a MTG joke a bit ago but I think she's right on the point she was trying to make. Adults can make decisions about their bodies but I don't think kids should be allowed to make permanent alterations to their gender even with parental consent. This shouldn't be seen as anti trans, just knowledge that kids don't think the consequences of their actions through (ask anyone in their 40's what they think of that tattoo they got on their 18th birthday). That's a huge step for someone to take and it should be done when they are older and fully understand the implications of what they are doing. I can sit here all day and talk about Trump but if the conversation here was about stuff like that and I had to bang my head against the wall being compare to people who think complete body autonomy should be extended to pre pubescent children then I would just not participate.

I agree with your first paragraph and know people who you describe.

The ideological center left is still the predominant group that holds party in the democratic party. The base might have moved on from them, but these "third way" people are very much still representative in the body politic.

 

[cowboyinexile]

I agree with your first paragraph and know people who you describe.

The ideological center left is still the predominant group that holds party in the democratic party. The base might have moved on from them, but these "third way" people are very much still representative in the body politic.

I can't decide if the fringe left is in the drivers seat or just drives some of the conversation.

Im guessing that has more to do with the media algorithms than anything. The left wing stuff wants me to believe things should be really left wing snd the right wing wants me to believe everyone who doesn't follow their brand of politics is really left wing.

 

[GratefulPoke]

I can't decide if the fringe left is in the drivers seat or just drives some of the conversation.

Im guessing that has more to do with the media algorithms than anything. The left wing stuff wants me to believe things should be really left wing snd the right wing wants me to believe everyone who doesn't follow their brand of politics is really left wing.

Who do think the "fringe left" is and what positions do they take? I think there are a lot of centerist dems that use language and virtue signal that they are much farther to the left than they are. This is exclusively on social issues too, it rarely happens with economics. Why? Because social issues rarely hurt their donors. Its why we had all of these corporations supporting Pride and coming out with antiracism statements, it not only didn't cost them anything, but they often made money on them. They don't want you paying attention to economics and how they and the billionaire class are robbing us blind.

On economics there is almost no one on the left in US politics. Most are center right neoliberals, and that goes for both parties.

 

[cowboyinexile]

Who do think the "fringe left" is and what positions do they take? I think there are a lot of centerist dems that use language and virtue signal that they are much farther to the left than they are. This is exclusively on social issues too, it rarely happens with economics. Why? Because social issues rarely hurt their donors. Its why we had all of these corporations supporting Pride and coming out with antiracism statements, it not only didn't cost them anything, but they often made money on them. They don't want you paying attention to economics and how they and the billionaire class are robbing us blind.

On economics there is almost no one on the left in US politics. Most are center right neoliberals, and that goes for both parties.

This is a good point. I think supporting basic human rights is pretty normal behavior but no one wants to be labeled as an extremist. But what are those extremist views? Well I don't know that I can say for sure. Things that are reasonable, like the state of Minnesota making sure female students have access to personal hygiene products in schools get turned into something weird because if it sounds reasonable the people who want the other side labeled as extreme will just make something up. So when you hear something extreme that doesn't apply to you, well you think it sounds crazy but maybe none of that stuff really happens either, or it happens with low enough frequency that it isn't really an issue worth debating.

 

[CowboyJD]

It is. And I realize @Rob B. thinks he is bringing balance to this den of Leftist propaganda. Ironically, though, he’s just reinforcing the stereotype that MAGA is a cult.

Meanwhile, I would truly appreciate some more conservative opinions being shared in here. But I would hope they would be done in good faith, unlike a few posters in here.

Also, there probably are a lot of things posted in here that come from left-leaning social media feeds, which are biased and/or not factual. I scroll past a lot of stuff posted by @Polds4OSU. Partly because of quantity and partly because of quality. I typically only read their posts that other members reply to. I don’t have time to read and verify all of those posts. Nor do I want to spend all my time on one side of the issues.

The problem becomes when even the moderate (someone like me) and right/conservative leaning ( like @RxCowboy) get interpreted from MAGA crowd as Democrat/leftist/libtard.

The immigration discussions are a prime example.

I've stated multiple times that my position on Immigration deportations is:

I have no problem with deporting non-citizen convicted of ANY felony (even non-violent white collar crimes) and even some serious misdemeanors (domestic abuse/DUI/etc)......but give them their damned due process.

I have no problem with people that overstayed visas or engaged in unlawful entry into the country being deported....but give them their damned due process.

That's a moderate, even right-leaning position, to take on immigration, IMO. It's been mischaracterized as a leftist/libtard more than once.

Furthermore, I've called out @Polds4OSU multiple times for biased/not-factual posts. Just like I have Rob.

Just like you (and for the same reasons) I scroll past a lot of his stuff (mostly focused on posts/statements made directly Trump administration officials while ignoring the potentially biased characterizations from social media). Finally, most of the other more left posters here mostly post their own thought rather than linking to social media for support/argument or cutting and pasting from propagandist social media.

It seems to me that Rob has a big problem with the nature and volume of Polds's posts and has decided his solution is to just become the MAGA side of the same coin. That's an unfortunate decision IMO. Exacerbated, for me, by a strawman argument towards @GratefulPoke that it's okay when that happens from the left, but not allowed from MAGA. @GratefulPoke has been saying the exact opposite. It's bad from either side, but it continues to be allowed from both sides as well.

 

[cowboyinexile]

The problem becomes when even the moderate (someone like me) and right/conservative leaning ( like @RxCowboy) get interpreted from MAGA crowd as Democrat/leftist/libtard.

The immigration discussions are a prime example.

I've stated multiple times that my position on Immigration deportations is:

I have no problem with deporting non-citizen convicted of ANY felony (even non-violent white collar crimes) and even some serious misdemeanors (domestic abuse/DUI/etc)......but give them their damned due process.

I have no problem with people that overstayed visas or engaged in unlawful entry into the country being deported....but give them their damned due process.

That's a moderate, even right-leaning position, to take on immigration, IMO. It's been mischaracterized as a leftist/libtard more than once.

Furthermore, I've called out @Polds4OSU multiple times for biased/not-factual posts. Just like I have Rob.

Just like you (and for the same reasons) I scroll past a lot of his stuff (mostly focused on posts/statements made directly Trump administration officials while ignoring the potentially biased characterizations from social media). Finally, most of the other more left posters here mostly post their own thought rather than linking to social media for support/argument or cutting and pasting from propagandist social media.

It seems to me that Rob has a big problem with the nature and volume of Polds's posts and has decided his solution is to just become the MAGA side of the same coin. That's an unfortunate decision IMO. Exacerbated, for me, by a strawman argument towards @GratefulPoke that it's okay when that happens from the left, but not allowed from MAGA. @GratefulPoke has been saying the exact opposite. It's bad from either side, but it continues to be allowed from both sides as well.

Libtard

 

[CowboyJD]

Who do think the "fringe left" is and what positions do they take? I think there are a lot of centerist dems that use language and virtue signal that they are much farther to the left than they are. This is exclusively on social issues too, it rarely happens with economics. Why? Because social issues rarely hurt their donors. Its why we had all of these corporations supporting Pride and coming out with antiracism statements, it not only didn't cost them anything, but they often made money on them. They don't want you paying attention to economics and how they and the billionaire class are robbing us blind.

On economics there is almost no one on the left in US politics. Most are center right neoliberals, and that goes for both parties.

To me, it's quickly becoming not even a left v. right dichotomy.

It's becoming an authoritarian/oligarchal v. fair representative democracy issue. An elite/powerful v. the rest of us issue.

The oligarchs and their ilk aren't involved in politics because of their belief system because the only belief system they have is the continued personal accumulation of wealth and power over right versus wrong. They'll sway left or right as the political wind blows....whomever can help them accumulate more wealth and power....look at Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos, et al.

It's not left vs. right. It's capital/financialization v. labor.

I don't want to call it a "class war" yet, but as the middle class of our society (which I recognize I am firmly a part of) continues to disappear, it's becoming more and more that.

 

[steross]

This would be interesting. You would get an idea how others see you. Obviously too late but it would be interesting to see how that view has changed over time.

I will say as an old timer I remember @steross being one of the right wing guys way back in the day-like when people were debating how Roberts would do on the court.

Man some of us are old.

I think we all drift some over time (@GratefulPoke as I recall was a fairly staunch libertarian in a past life).

That said, I don't feel like I have drifted so far that I went from a mild righty to a libtard.

I've said before, in Australia they thought I was insanely conservative.

 

[GratefulPoke]

To me, it's quickly becoming not even a left v. right dichotomy.

It's becoming an authoritarian/oligarchal v. fair representative democracy issue. An elite/powerful v. the rest of us issue.

The oligarchs and their ilk aren't involved in politics because of their belief system because the only belief system they have is the continued personal accumulation of wealth and power over right versus wrong. They'll sway left or right as the political wind blows....whomever can help them accumulate more wealth and power....look at Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos, et al.

It's not left vs. right. It's capital/financialization v. labor.

I don't want to call it a "class war" yet, but as the middle class of our society (which I recognize I am firmly a part of) continues to disappear, it's becoming more and more that.

Kidding.

But in all seriousness, I agree with your statement. I think class conflict is becoming the predominant flashpoint of our time. Fascism doesn't rise out of a bubble, historically, it has risen out of parliamentary democracies and republics failing to deliver on their values and allowing those guaranteed rights to be stripped from others based on their lack of wealth/means. Its the allowance of some to live in such extreme opulance versus those that live in squalor while working full time. That is what happened after WWI, and that is exactly what is happening now.

Fascism gives those disenfranchised people an outlet and the feelings of empowerment after being cast aside by the system previously, but it has no interest in actually improving their lot in life or dealing with the cause of that disenfranchisement. It is incapable of doing so. What it does is create and ever shrinking circle of "chosen" people, usually along the lines of race and ethnicity and the language of supremacy over the "other" as the cause of all of their ills. It is wildly destructive.

The elite don't mind playing ball with fascism as despite its populist messaging, it has no interest in actually confronting power, it usually empowers it. We saw this in Italy, Germany and Spain in the 1920s and 1930s, and we are seeing it in the US now with similar trends in Europe. It is worth mentioning that this would not have been possible without a right-libertarian influenced neoliberal economic order. We created these circumstances over time through excessive deregulation in the corporate and financial sectors combined with unsound monetary policy. These gutted the working class through union busting and weakening collective bargaining, while banks were able to lend large sums of money at lower interest rates to the already biggest fish.

Saving, something the middle class was always good at became a detriment, you were actually losing money if you saved it thanks to low interest rates and rising inflation.The middle class interest has often served as a buffer between the working class and the elites, but now that it is shrinking and in a full decline, that is no longer possible.

There is a remedy to both combat fascism and to allay the needs of the common person, that is through the reinstallation of a FDR-like social democracy or through a Zohran/Bernie Sandersesque implementation of democratic socialsm.

In the past, both on here and on OP.com I pushed for deregulation and those ideas directly contributed to where we are now. I pushed for right-libertarian economic ideas. I was wrong and have had to live through this portion of history to see things differently. But now I do. It is time for a new economic system, I think that should be economic democracy to match our political system so there is no longer friction there.

Its time to try democratic socialism, IMO.

 

[Backin82]

This would be interesting. You would get an idea how others see you. Obviously too late but it would be interesting to see how that view has changed over time.

I will say as an old timer I remember @steross being one of the right wing guys way back in the day-like when people were debating how Roberts would do on the court.

Man some of us are old.

I started very "conservative", quickly moved towards libertarian through my late 20's and 30's, and have drifted towards wanting more regulation over time, realizing that we're out of balance currently (private corps have too much power).

 

[Big Huck]

There used to be a lot more balanced conversation on this board (going back to OP) as you mentioned above. A lot of posters have just left the subforum all together.

How many of us are former conservatives ourselves? Definitely me before the Trump years.

 

[CowboyJD]

Kidding.

But in all seriousness, I agree with your statement. I think class conflict is becoming the predominant flashpoint of our time. Fascism doesn't rise out of a bubble, historically, it has risen out of parliamentary democracies and republics failing to deliver on their values and allowing those guaranteed rights to be stripped from others based on their lack of wealth/means. Its the allowance of some to live in such extreme opulance versus those that live in squalor while working full time. That is what happened after WWI, and that is exactly what is happening now.

Fascism gives those disenfranchised people an outlet and the feelings of empowerment after being cast aside by the system previously, but it has no interest in actually improving their lot in life or dealing with the cause of that disenfranchisement. It is incapable of doing so. What it does is create and ever shrinking circle of "chosen" people, usually along the lines of race and ethnicity and the language of supremacy over the "other" as the cause of all of their ills. It is wildly destructive.

The elite don't mind playing ball with fascism as despite its populist messaging, it has no interest in actually confronting power, it usually empowers it. We saw this in Italy, Germany and Spain in the 1920s and 1930s, and we are seeing it in the US now with similar trends in Europe. It is worth mentioning that this would not have been possible without a right-libertarian influenced neoliberal economic order. We created these circumstances over time through excessive deregulation in the corporate and financial sectors combined with unsound monetary policy. These gutted the working class through union busting and weakening collective bargaining, while banks were able to lend large sums of money at lower interest rates to the already biggest fish.

Saving, something the middle class was always good at became a detriment, you were actually losing money if you saved it thanks to low interest rates and rising inflation.The middle class interest has often served as a buffer between the working class and the elites, but now that it is shrinking and in a full decline, that is no longer possible.

There is a remedy to both combat fascism and to allay the needs of the common person, that is through the reinstallation of a FDR-like social democracy or through a Zohran/Bernie Sandersesque implementation of democratic socialsm.

In the past, both on here and on OP.com I pushed for deregulation and those ideas directly contributed to where we are now. I pushed for right-libertarian economic ideas. I was wrong and have had to live through this portion of history to see things differently. But now I do. It is time for a new economic system, I think that should be economic democracy to match our political system so there is no longer friction there.

Its time to try democratic socialism, IMO.

You’re getting there faster than me, but you pretty much exactly described my political/economic theoretical drift.

 

[GratefulPoke]

You’re getting there faster than me, but you pretty much exactly described my political/economic theoretical drift.

That is interesting that you are on a similar trajectory as I am. There are quite a few people I know who were "right" libertarians from 2008-2016 that have drifted in a leftist direction and are in a similar place.

The wild thing is, I don't think my values have really changed. I still consider myself a "left" libertarian and still think a libertarian society would be optimal, its just the realization of what actually works and how we get there has changed. I don't think we can get there without leftist economics.

 

[Big Huck]

That is interesting that you are on a similar trajectory as I am. There are quite a few people I know who were "right" libertarians from 2008-2016 that have drifted in a leftist direction and are in a similar place.

The wild thing is, I don't think my values have really changed. I still consider myself a "left" libertarian and still think a libertarian society would be optimal, its just the realization of what actually works and how we get there has changed. I don't think we can get there without leftist economics.

The thing is that conservative news likes to pretend the socialist drift is happening in a vacuum. They refuse to acknowledge (for obvious reasons) that as capitalism works for fewer and fewer people, those people will be forced to turn to alternative forms of governance.

 

[GratefulPoke]

The thing is that conservative news likes to pretend the socialist drift is happening in a vacuum. They refuse to acknowledge (for obvious reasons) that as capitalism works for fewer and fewer people, those people will be forced to turn to alternative forms of governance.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the bolded part. The best case for socialism is unfettered capitalism.

 

[Big Huck]

I think you hit the nail on the head with the bolded part. The best case for socialism is unfettered capitalism.

Capitalism without a conscience is what I call it. Now paired with an addiction economy.

 

[steross]

Its time to try democratic socialism, IMO.

Can you give me a sense of what this means to you? Like, what specifically would be different in the US if we were to adopt it besides Medicare for All or other health care system?

 

[GratefulPoke]

Can you give me a sense of what this means to you? Like, what specifically would be different in the US if we were to adopt it besides Medicare for All or other health care system?

Yes, but it might take a few days to draft something up, it probably won't be short.