Mental illness?

[steross]

He was interested in chess and coding, and had recently received an associate’s degree in engineering science. High school classmates remembered him as an intelligent student who had few friends, but who never exhibited any glaring red flags. The nursing home where he had a job helping with meals said his work gave its staff no reason for “concern.”
........
And in an era when other people his age put troves of personal information online, Thomas Matthew Crooks, 20, left few clues about who he was, what he believed, or why he decided to drive to a Trump rally in western Pennsylvania on Saturday and try to assassinate the former president.
........
Crooks grew up in the relatively affluent suburb of Bethel Park in the South Hills region of Pittsburgh, about an hour’s drive from the site of the rally.
His parents are both licensed counselors, according to Pennsylvania records. His father worked at a local behavioral health provider, according to his LinkedIn profile.
The neighborhood where the family lives is “pretty firmly middle class, maybe upper-middle class,” Dan Grzybek, who represents the area on the county council, said in an interview Sunday.
..........
The FBI has not found a manifesto, and Crooks had never been under FBI investigation. The official confirmed that he did not have an unusual online history for a 20-year-old man. He liked to play chess, video games and was learning how to code, according to a review of his online activities.
He did not appear to have a public profile on major social media platforms including Facebook and Instagram. The messaging platform Discord said it had found an account apparently linked to the gunman, but the company said that “it was rarely utilized and we have found no evidence that it was used to plan this incident or discuss his political views.”
..........
One of the classmates, Zach Bradford, said he had taken American history and government classes with him, that Crooks appeared to be “incredibly intelligent” and that his views in high school seemed “slightly right leaning.” Bradford said he remembered a couple of instances in which classmates gave Crooks a hard time, but he was shocked when he heard that Crooks had been identified as the shooter.

“I honestly would’ve never expected this,” he said.

FBI Finds Few Red Flags on a Would-Be Assassin

He was interested in chess and coding, and had recently received an associate’s degree in engineering science. High school classmates remembered him as an intelligent student who had few friends, but who never exhibited any glaring red flags. The nursing home where he had a job helping with...

news.yahoo.com

 

[GratefulPoke]

Yes. I dont know any well adjusted folks that rig their car to explode with a two "rudimentary" devices while trying to kill a public figure. To me, that signals that he didn't expect to survive it and intended to go out with a "bang".

 

[KK10]

I went for yes, mainly because I can't rationalize this any other way. By all the info we know so far, nothing jumps out as any kind of motivation. Almost leaves a mental issue as the only driver to do something like this.

 

[Stillwater Townie]

Yes. I think the young shooter had undiagnosed and untreated Schizophrenia. Quite likely society needs better educated to know signs when young people are becoming mentally ill from Schizophrenia. It's just too awful how young men afflicted by Schizophrenia desire to put others at fatal harm as well as themselves.

 

[Rob B.]

Yes. I think the young shooter had undiagnosed and untreated Schizophrenia. Quite likely society needs better educated to know signs when young people are becoming mentally ill from Schizophrenia. It's just too awful how young men afflicted by Schizophrenia desire to put others at fatal harm as well as themselves.

I'm not saying he wasn't Schizophrenic, but it sure seems odd that his parents (both licensed professional counselors) didn't detect any signs of it.

 

[steross]

Yes. I dont know any well adjusted folks that rig their car to explode with a two "rudimentary" devices while trying to kill a public figure. To me, that signals that he didn't expect to survive it and intended to go out with a "bang".

Not claiming well-adjusted. In fact, he obviously was not. But, is it mental illness?

 

[steross]

Yes. I think the young shooter had undiagnosed and untreated Schizophrenia. Quite likely society needs better educated to know signs when young people are becoming mentally ill from Schizophrenia. It's just too awful how young men afflicted by Schizophrenia desire to put others at fatal harm as well as themselves.

How did you make the determination of schizophrenia?

 

[Rob B.]

How did you make the determination of schizophrenia?

I'm sure lots of science was used.

 

[GratefulPoke]

Not claiming well-adjusted. In fact, he obviously was not. But, is it mental illness?

Homicidal/suicidal tendencies are a hallmark of depression. Since the shooter was withdrawn, it may have been more difficult for his parents to detect it.

I'd be more interested in a forensic psychologists opinion on this than the APA. He wasn't to our knowledge in therapy.

 

[steross]

Homicidal/suicidal tendencies are a hallmark of depression. Since the shooter was withdrawn, it may have been more difficult for his parents to detect it.

I'd be more interested in a forensic psychologists opinion on this than the APA. He wasn't to our knowledge in therapy.

My point in all of this is that if we take someone who commits this type of crime then decide that it must be mental illness because that is the only way that we can come to grips with the idea that someone could do this, then by definition, they are all "mentally ill" in some capacity and it waters it down to a meaningless designation. I don't think that all of these people are mentally ill by the methods we use medically to define mental illness.

Even if we call being withdrawn then murdering as depression, how do you treat a mental illness that has no significant signs that it is going to occur until the person murders?

I think the desire to call it mental illness to be treated by professionals hides the reality that we are an angry society that lashes out at people, bullies, and makes people feel rotten. Nearly all are somewhat socially isolated other than online and online is where people say things that they typically would not say in person. Politics has left the world of difference of opinion to the world of enemies. "Putin is better than a libtard" or "Trump is a nazi" is a lot different than "I think we should have universal health care" or "I think we should have lower taxes."

Some people can handle this, some cannot. But, maybe if we looked at this as a how-we-treat-each-other crisis that would require action from all of us instead of a mental health crisis that makes us believe it is the fault of a crappy health care system we might be better off.

 

[GratefulPoke]

My point in all of this is that if we take someone who commits this type of crime then decide that it must be mental illness because that is the only way that we can come to grips with the idea that someone could do this, then by definition, they are all "mentally ill" in some capacity and it waters it down to a meaningless designation. I don't think that all of these people are mentally ill by the methods we use medically to define mental illness.

Even if we call being withdrawn then murdering as depression, how do you treat a mental illness that has no significant signs that it is going to occur until the person murders?

I think the desire to call it mental illness to be treated by professionals hides the reality that we are an angry society that lashes out at people, bullies, and makes people feel rotten. Nearly all are somewhat socially isolated other than online and online is where people say things that they typically would not say in person. Politics has left the world of difference of opinion to the world of enemies. "Putin is better than a libtard" or "Trump is a nazi" is a lot different than "I think we should have universal health care" or "I think we should have lower taxes."

Some people can handle this, some cannot. But, maybe if we looked at this as a how-we-treat-each-other crisis that would require action from all of us instead of a mental health crisis that makes us believe it is the fault of a crappy health care system we might be better off.

These are good points. I don't disagree that our culture is needlessly hostile and cruel at times. The counterpoint is that diagnosis of mental health disorders are dependent on those around the person or the person themselves sharing enough information with a clinical psychologist so that one can be assessed.

If someone is withdrawn, has very few, if any friends, and does not look for help themselves, those things are not possible and no disorder is diagnosed. There really isn't a shortcut around this, per the DSM-V. This is why I am more interested in a forensic psychologists' opinion, as this is the exact thing they excel at.

Also, I think we both agree that gang activity is mental health related, whereas mass shooters/assassins do at this point. There seems to be a "type" of person capable of doing this and this type of person seems to commit atrocity after atrocity.

 

[steross]

These are good points. I don't disagree that our culture is needlessly hostile and cruel at times. The counterpoint is that diagnosis of mental health disorders are dependent on those around the person or the person themselves sharing enough information with a clinical psychologist so that one can be assessed.

If someone is withdrawn, has very few, if any friends, and does not look for help themselves, those things are not possible and no disorder is diagnosed. There really isn't a shortcut around this, per the DSM-V. This is why I am more interested in a forensic psychologists' opinion, as this is the exact thing they excel at.

Also, I think we both agree that gang activity is mental health related, whereas mass shooters/assassins do at this point. There seems to be a "type" of person capable of doing this and this type of person seems to commit atrocity after atrocity.

How will people feel if a forensic psychologist says, "After review, this young man was suffering from clinical depression" vs if the FP says "Nope, he was just angry and killed. No mental illness was involved."

I can tell you, that answer might be different depending on what country it occurred in. In my experience in the US, if someone comes in stating that they are homicidal they are put in psychiatry. In Australia, I twice had teens stating that they were homicidal, once even wanted to kill his own family, and psychiatry evaluated and said, "Not mental illness. This is a police matter."

I'm no expert in this designation, but it is interesting to see the difference.

 

[Stillwater Townie]

How did you make the determination of schizophrenia?

While I'm no doctor schizophrenia most often starts in males in their late teen and early 20s. I wonder if mental health doctors think there is a difference between mental illness and turning to do great evil.

 

[GratefulPoke]

Bill O'Reilly and Jon Stewart on Mental Health, rhetoric and historical assassination attempts. It's a good interview.

 

[GratefulPoke]

A Blind Spot and a Lost Trail: How the Gunman Got So Close to Trump

Even though local police were on the lookout for a suspicious man, critical minutes ticked by, allowing a would-be assassin to slip past, a Times analysis found.

www.nytimes.com

Appears to be mental health. If it was Biden campaigning nearby instead of Trump, he would have tried to assassinate him instead.

 

[steross]

A Blind Spot and a Lost Trail: How the Gunman Got So Close to Trump

Even though local police were on the lookout for a suspicious man, critical minutes ticked by, allowing a would-be assassin to slip past, a Times analysis found.

www.nytimes.com

Appears to be mental health. If it was Biden campaigning nearby instead of Trump, he would have tried to assassinate him instead.

Where did you get all that in that article?

 

[GratefulPoke]

Where did you get all that in that article?

Officials singled out some of the searches on one of his cellphones, saying that he had looked up “major depressive disorder,” according to a person on the calls and another briefed on its contents.

And, at least once, his browsing history signaled concerns about his own mental state. He also seems to have previewed his attack on Steam, a gaming platform he frequented, telling fellow gamers he planned to make his “premiere” on July 13, the day of the shooting.

F.B.I. officials told members of Congress on Wednesday that the gunman who tried to kill former President Donald J. Trump used his cellphone and other devices to search for images of Mr. Trump and President Biden, along with an array of public figures.

The 20-year-old gunman, Thomas Matthew Crooks of Bethel Park, Pa., also looked up dates of Mr. Trump’s appearances and the Democratic National Convention, according to people on two conference calls held to answer lawmakers’ questions.

Those paragraphs are from that article and this one:
Gunman’s Phone Had Details About Both Trump and Biden, F.B.I. Officials Say https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/17/us/trump-shooting-crooks-motive.html?smid=nytcore-android-share

 

[steross]

Officials singled out some of the searches on one of his cellphones, saying that he had looked up “major depressive disorder,” according to a person on the calls and another briefed on its contents.

And, at least once, his browsing history signaled concerns about his own mental state. He also seems to have previewed his attack on Steam, a gaming platform he frequented, telling fellow gamers he planned to make his “premiere” on July 13, the day of the shooting.

F.B.I. officials told members of Congress on Wednesday that the gunman who tried to kill former President Donald J. Trump used his cellphone and other devices to search for images of Mr. Trump and President Biden, along with an array of public figures.

The 20-year-old gunman, Thomas Matthew Crooks of Bethel Park, Pa., also looked up dates of Mr. Trump’s appearances and the Democratic National Convention, according to people on two conference calls held to answer lawmakers’ questions.

Those paragraphs are from that article and this one:
Gunman’s Phone Had Details About Both Trump and Biden, F.B.I. Officials Say https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/17/us/trump-shooting-crooks-motive.html?smid=nytcore-android-share

One search for "major depressive disorder" from a person that works in a nursing home means he has a mental illness? Searches for multiple politicians means we know he had intent to kill any of them?

I just can't get to those conclusions from such little evidence.

 

[GratefulPoke]

One search for "major depressive disorder" from a person that works in a nursing home means he has a mental illness? Searches for multiple politicians means we know he had intent to kill any of them?

I just can't get to those conclusions from such little evidence.

Look at the actions which track with the behavior. You don't commit an attempted assasination without planning, buying a ladder, ammo and explosives over multiple days--which he did. You dont do searches about major depressive disorder, then make a statement on a gaming platform about making a "premiere" without being in a bad place mentally.

 

[steross]

Look at the actions which track with the behavior. You don't commit an attempted assasination without planning, buying a ladder, ammo and explosives over multiple days--which he did. You dont do searches about major depressive disorder, then make a statement on a gaming platform about making a "premiere" without being in a bad place mentally.

I agree that is a person in a bad place mentally. Any person that commits a premeditated murder is in a bad place mentally.