ICE

 
Since you asked in a civil manner without the typical personal attacks. (Much appreciated BTW). Here is my take on the situation.


If you lean left, if you care deeply about civil rights, human dignity, abuse of power, and protecting vulnerable people, these questions are for you too. They are not an attack on compassion or empathy, and they are not a demand that you abandon your values. They are an invitation to slow the moment down and ask whether the way we act in the street actually aligns with the outcomes we say we want. Caring about people and thinking critically are not opposites. Wanting safer communities, fair laws, and humane treatment does not require chaos, escalation, or putting lives at risk. If the goal is justice, accountability, and fewer people harmed, then common sense, restraint, and clear thinking belong in the conversation just as much as passion does.

If I am protesting the arrest of people with criminal histories, do I fully understand what those histories are? Do I know the difference between a civil immigration violation and a violent or repeat criminal offense? Am I reacting to a headline, or to verified facts about the individual cases involved? Would I be willing to personally take responsibility for one of the people being arrested? Would I adopt one of these individuals into my home if the alternative were detention or deportation? Would I be willing to be legally responsible for their actions while their case is pending? Would I provide food, shelter, transportation, and daily supervision? Would I transport them back and forth to court dates or immigration hearings? Would I guarantee they appear in court if released into my care, and if they failed to appear, would I accept legal consequences for that failure? Would I allow them to sleep under my roof with my children in the house? Would I feel comfortable leaving them alone in my home? Would I trust them around my spouse, my kids, my neighbors, or my pets? Would I install locks, cameras, or safeguards, and if so, why would those be necessary? Would I accept financial liability if they caused harm or property damage? Would I still defend my position publicly if the person I sponsored reoffended? If I would not take one person into my own home, why do I expect society to absorb unlimited risk? Is compassion meaningful if it never requires personal sacrifice? Is it moral to demand outcomes I would not personally participate in?

What business is this of mine, right now, in this moment? Am I directly involved in what is happening, or am I inserting myself into something that does not concern me legally or practically? What do I believe will actually change because I am standing here today? Am I confusing feeling strongly with thinking clearly? If I walk away right now, does anything meaningful get worse, or do I just lose the feeling of being involved? What is my specific goal here? Is my goal emotional release, public visibility, moral signaling, or an actual policy outcome? Can I clearly explain what law I want changed and how that change would realistically occur? Do laws change because of street interference, or because of legislation, courts, elections, and sustained pressure? If my actions today succeed perfectly, what does success actually look like tomorrow morning? Am I assuming everyone else will stay calm while I act impulsively? Am I relying on someone else’s restraint to protect me from the consequences of my own choices? Do loud noises, crowds, and adrenaline usually improve judgment, or do they make mistakes more likely? If something goes wrong, am I prepared to accept responsibility for my role in it?

Why am I standing this close to armed professionals performing a job I do not control? Do I believe proximity increases my moral authority, or does it just increase risk? If a vehicle moves unexpectedly, if someone panics, if someone stumbles, what happens next? Is this moment worth someone getting hurt? Is it worth me getting hurt? What am I hoping the officers will do differently because I am here? Do I believe yelling, blocking, or interfering causes better outcomes, or just faster escalation? If I believe enforcement is wrong, am I creating evidence and records, or am I creating chaos, and which one actually helps courts, oversight, and accountability? If I care about people being arrested, have I supported legal aid, court navigation, or lawful advocacy? Have I spent time understanding the legal process I am trying to disrupt, or am I performing concern in public?

If I were writing the law myself, what would it actually say? How would it handle violent offenders, repeat offenders, and due process? What resources would it require, where would that money come from, and what unintended consequences would it create? Do I believe laws stop applying when enough people disagree with them, and if that were true, which laws would still exist tomorrow? Would I want that standard applied to issues I care about less? Have I ever called 911? Do I expect law enforcement to exist when I need help, and if so, how do I reconcile that with believing all enforcement is illegitimate? If I am not a citizen, do I believe street chaos improves my legal outcome, or would calm legal counsel and verified support help more than confrontation?

Am I here to save lives, or to feel righteous? If someone is injured today, will I still believe this was worth it? If nothing changes at all, will I admit this accomplished nothing? Am I thinking, or am I reacting? Am I acting out of principle, or out of anger? If I walk away, does that make me weak, or does it make me rational? What happens after today, after the crowd leaves, after the cameras are gone? What does my future look like if this escalates instead of resolves? Is common sense cowardice, or is it how people go home alive?

These questions are not meant to shame, silence, or score points. They exist to interrupt reflex and replace it with thought. Before stepping into the street, before escalating a moment that cannot be taken back, before assuming righteousness guarantees safety, it is worth sitting with these questions honestly. Not to prove anything to others, but to be clear with ourselves. Lives are not improved by confusion, noise, or impulse. They are improved by clarity, responsibility, and choices that reduce harm rather than multiply it. If thinking carefully keeps even one person from getting hurt, then asking the questions matters.

I don't believe it was necessary to have shot and killed Alex Pretti. I also don't believe it was necessary for him to show up as an armed protestor. I also wasn't at the scene and don't know the exact circumstances that led to his death. Neither was anyone else on this message board.
Wonder which side you would have taken in the days after the Tulsa Race Massacre? Or when Native Americans were enduring ethnic cleansing and genocide? Or Aisian’s were imprisoned.

Or how about when Civil Rights protesters were beaten, imprisoned and killed? They too were protesting against the laws of the land. They too put themselves next to armed law enforcement “professionals.” Were they wrong? Were those killed doing it for nothing? What did they accomplish?

I have yet to see one person advocate for undocumented or documented immigrants with criminal pasts (and let’s not argue about undocumented = criminal)be loosed on society and not be treated in accordance with our laws.

Your entire post drips w authoritarian morality justification.
 
@Rob B. its not a playground tactic and I never have called you a name like you did replying to Whit’s direct response to me. I’m not mad or hurt, before you call me a snowflake. Just asking you to be civil, as I believe you typically intend to do.
Apologies for making that look like I was including you or making you think I was calling you a clown, I wasn't paying attention to who Whit was responding to.

And I very much appreciate your civil replies here. I read all of your long reply and respect that.

"The death of Alex Pretti is a tragedy. It is right to say it should not have happened. But the conclusion you draw—that his presence as an armed protester was also unnecessary—risks implying that the safest and most rational choice is always to stay away, especially when the state arrives with guns and authority. An alternative reading is possible: that his willingness to stand physically in opposition, even knowing the danger, is part of a long, difficult lineage of people who believed that some moments require bodies, not just opinions."

That part in particular is very true. And I pray it doesn't start a civil war. But that's pretty much what happens when citizens take arms against the government. Protests become more than protests when that happens.
 
Senator Klobuchar makes a good point: "Somehow 50,000 peaceful protesters in 10 below weather were able to march without any problems, and then the next day half a dozen ICE and CBP agents couldn't handle a guy with a cell phone taking video of them and shot him. I think it's pretty obvious what's going on here."

 
Wonder which side you would have taken in the days after the Tulsa Race Massacre? Or when Native Americans were enduring ethnic cleansing and genocide? Or Aisian’s were imprisoned.

Or how about when Civil Rights protesters were beaten, imprisoned and killed? They too were protesting against the laws of the land. They too put themselves next to armed law enforcement “professionals.” Were they wrong? Were those killed doing it for nothing? What did they accomplish?

I have yet to see one person advocate for undocumented or documented immigrants with criminal pasts (and let’s not argue about undocumented = criminal)be loosed on society and not be treated in accordance with our laws.
There it is!
Race has nothing to do with my stance. I would have likely not lived a long life in the days when racism was blatant because I would have stood up for black people like I have since I was in kindergarten.
My great grandmother was full Choctaw. I'm a proud voting member of my tribe.
But no matter how many times I say it, out comes the race card.

These incidents have been caused because ICE is trying to remove criminal elements from cities whose leadership is encouraging people to interfere, not protest, strap on a weapon and interfere with the arrest of a criminal. And I won't argue about "undocumented" I'm talking about wanted criminals.
 
Minneapolis Police Chief Brian O'Hara: "People have had enough. This is the third shooting in less than 3 weeks. The MPD went the entire year last year recovering about 900 guns from the street, arresting hundreds of violent offenders, and we didn't shoot anyone ... this is not sustainable."

 
I'm sick & tired of seeing basic guaranteed rights openly violated.
It's one thing to trample someone's guaranteed constitutional rights; the blatant disregard shown by then giving multiple public statements by a whole host of different administration members that completely justify this action in total opposition of those constitutional rights.
I am a self-proclaimed gun rights guy, and I have had to listen to people openly campaigning in favor of things like magazine capacity restrictions. At every turn previously, people rightly (IMO) opposed these as 2A violations. Now some of those same people are putting out statements justifying this killing because of the capacity of the magazine or the optics or the brand/quality of the firearm. They either don't see the hypocrisy or don't care or even worse, both!
 
Peter Doocy: It appears that Alex Pretti was disarmed. If he was disarmed, is it the protocol to use deadly force?

Kristi Noem: That's all part of this investigation.

 
KARL: He was an ICU use who worked for the VA and there's no evidence he brandished the gun whatsoever

BESSENT: But he brought a gun

KARL: I mean, we do have a Second Amendment

BESSENT: I've been to a protest -- guess what? I didn't bring a gun. I brought a billboard

 
Kathy Hochul “Kristi Noem has forfeited her right to lead. I’m calling on her to resign as Secretary of Homeland Security or Donald Trump to do the right thing and just fire her. If not she must be removed or impeached. Gregory Bovino should also be fired”

 
Q: Local officials say Alex Pretti was a lawful gun owner with a permit to carry. The video seems to show an officer removing a gun in the seconds before Mr. Pretti was shot. Was he disarmed before those shots were fired?

Trump's Deputy AG: I do not know and nobody else knows either

 
MTG defends protester shot by DHS and says people need to lose their ‘blinders’: ‘You are all being incited into civil war’

‘Legally carrying a firearm is not the same as brandishing a firearm,’ the former Georgia congresswoman wrote

 
Back
Top